clubchamp07
Journeyman Pro
Excellent Bob,
Mothering Sunday could be paid for as an extra
Mothering Sunday could be paid for as an extra
Has your club/course made concessions for the ladies?
- Thread starter brendy
- Start date
Beaker
Assistant Pro
I am a member of the Greens committee at my club and we have had a long debate over course set up for a long time! There are two reasons why we are wanting to alter the set up of the course:
1)We only have 5 greens staff and in the summer alot of time is spent just cutting rough, nothing else. So we want to add bits of long grass so that the rough cutting time is reduced and therefore the greens staff can spend more time on more important areas of the course.
2) Due to our course length, our standard scratch could change. We need to add at least 100 yards to the course and doing this is costly. But to keep the rating 72 you can do a number of things like reduce the size of fairways and add in these areas of rough.
So basically in trying to do this we have had so many objections that it looks like we will be able to do hardly any of the proposed changes! Last year we made two changes that we eventually had to scrap because of the complaints! One was we added an area of rough in front of one of the tee's that was 10 yards long. We received over 10 complaints that this rough was to hard to get over, one of which came from the chairmans wife!! It was no more than a 15 yard carry for the ladies. The second was on our second par 5 we cut the fairway in half at about 240 yards off the mens back tees. The rough between the fairways was about 4 yards long. Ladies complain that the couldn't get over this area in 2, and the better players at the club complained that if they drove it into there then they couldn't go for the green in 2. The rough was kept lower than 2 inches. Our course is suffering because the greens staff can't concentrate there time on the right areas, members don't like minor changes and our standard scratch will go to 71 and we will loose some of our better players!
Its a really hard balancing act!
1)We only have 5 greens staff and in the summer alot of time is spent just cutting rough, nothing else. So we want to add bits of long grass so that the rough cutting time is reduced and therefore the greens staff can spend more time on more important areas of the course.
2) Due to our course length, our standard scratch could change. We need to add at least 100 yards to the course and doing this is costly. But to keep the rating 72 you can do a number of things like reduce the size of fairways and add in these areas of rough.
So basically in trying to do this we have had so many objections that it looks like we will be able to do hardly any of the proposed changes! Last year we made two changes that we eventually had to scrap because of the complaints! One was we added an area of rough in front of one of the tee's that was 10 yards long. We received over 10 complaints that this rough was to hard to get over, one of which came from the chairmans wife!! It was no more than a 15 yard carry for the ladies. The second was on our second par 5 we cut the fairway in half at about 240 yards off the mens back tees. The rough between the fairways was about 4 yards long. Ladies complain that the couldn't get over this area in 2, and the better players at the club complained that if they drove it into there then they couldn't go for the green in 2. The rough was kept lower than 2 inches. Our course is suffering because the greens staff can't concentrate there time on the right areas, members don't like minor changes and our standard scratch will go to 71 and we will loose some of our better players!
Its a really hard balancing act!
barb
Head Pro
Brendy, I couldn't agree more. Before I resigned from my club we would have long debates about positioning of ladies tees etc as many of our ladies weren't of the ability to hit the ball long and more often than not they wouldn't even reach the fairway, we came to the conclusion that whilst for some being very short hitters off the tee was an issue this could not be said for the majority of the club (following the results of a club survey in one of our monthly newsletters) so the decision was made to leave all the hazards and tee boxes in there original position as this gave the course the challenges that the majority of golfers look for.
Following the decision we did get a few complaints from a few lady members about lack of consultation and appropriateness of the length of some holes but in my view
I play to test myself and to try and better my game, without these challenges of hazards and distance I will never progress.
I often when able to play, play from the mens tees as it does give a different perspective and tests my ability to negociate
a course.We even layed on some group lessons for members to help them improve their game, you can't please everyone
Herbie
Tour Winner
Beaker I have some empathy with you, I believe that your changes were a great idea both to save maintainance and to make the course more challenging. Sometimes I think some people want a par 5 to be no more than 200 yds long with a 200 yd wide fairway, a green that is 100yds by 100yds , no bunkers or any other hazards and a stroke index 1.
Where is the challenge these days?
Where is the challenge these days?
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
I know a lotof our women complain about the difficulty of the course but with the exception of our 3rd hole which requires a carry of about 130 yards of the ladies tee there isn't another hole that should present a problem.
I'm going out on a limb here and don't include ANY of of regular female members in this but for a lot of our lady members its all about Tuesday and meeting up for a game and a gossip. To be honest the gossip comes first second and third and the majority of these ladies can't hit more than about 50 yards from the tee and then hit from 30 yard intervals down the hole.
I have seen them on the practice ground once in a while and I frequently have to rush and hide in the practice bunker as its too funny to watch. They have this big huge wind up and then waft the club down like swatting a fly and watch it topple along the ground.
As far as I'm aware the club have made no concessions. Last year we had a first cut of rough (what would be described as light rough) where you could get it sitting up nicely or nestle down and then we had the thick stuff which if you could find it was a chip out job. A lot of the men complianed but none of the wome ans 30 yards on the floor for them at least went straight.
I'm going out on a limb here and don't include ANY of of regular female members in this but for a lot of our lady members its all about Tuesday and meeting up for a game and a gossip. To be honest the gossip comes first second and third and the majority of these ladies can't hit more than about 50 yards from the tee and then hit from 30 yard intervals down the hole.
I have seen them on the practice ground once in a while and I frequently have to rush and hide in the practice bunker as its too funny to watch. They have this big huge wind up and then waft the club down like swatting a fly and watch it topple along the ground.
As far as I'm aware the club have made no concessions. Last year we had a first cut of rough (what would be described as light rough) where you could get it sitting up nicely or nestle down and then we had the thick stuff which if you could find it was a chip out job. A lot of the men complianed but none of the wome ans 30 yards on the floor for them at least went straight.
stevek1969
Money List Winner
They get to play saturday mornings now and they yap non stop , not to good when your heads buzzing from friday nights swally session and there as slow as anything.
OldWindy
Q-School Graduate
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2008
- Messages
- 910
- Location
- The land of the long green vegetable
The ladies have a long-drop close to the 11th tee...they even painted the inside and put a plant in there!
AliB
Q-School Graduate
Heck, I am beginning to wonder if I'm allowed to be here being of the fairer sex and handicap 20+!
Still, I'd like to think I can carry more than 25 yds (at least with the wind behind) and am not aware of ever having had a 'courtesy shot' given to me (except those I get for my handicap). I do benefit from the occasional kindly tee position, and that's the very most I would expect. In times past I did play a season off yellows and probably did no worse than off reds.
I know of no 'concessions' made to women at our place apart from redoing of the ghastly loos - but then there are only two of us!
I can only assume some of your cantankerous ladies account for a chunk of membership fees and have more bargaining power.
AliB
Still, I'd like to think I can carry more than 25 yds (at least with the wind behind) and am not aware of ever having had a 'courtesy shot' given to me (except those I get for my handicap). I do benefit from the occasional kindly tee position, and that's the very most I would expect. In times past I did play a season off yellows and probably did no worse than off reds.
I know of no 'concessions' made to women at our place apart from redoing of the ghastly loos - but then there are only two of us!
I can only assume some of your cantankerous ladies account for a chunk of membership fees and have more bargaining power.
AliB
theeaglehunter
Tour Winner
Firstly I am fortunate that no changes as described have been carried out on my course, to make it easier, since I have been a member.
What I would add to the discussion though is the fact that many senior / elder male members are also often in a predicament where they simply can not carry a hazzard / section of rough in front of the tee. They are much in the same position as the women and it gets worse for them when they have to play off the whites in competitions. If the seniors can cope with this at your course, than the women's complaints should have been well and truly dismissed. If the seniors also find length of holes etc a problem than the club would have to make a decision that pleased the majority of members based on the number of seniors and women they have in comparison to normal male members. In most cases this would result in the course being left alone, not being made easier which is how I believe it should be.
What I would add to the discussion though is the fact that many senior / elder male members are also often in a predicament where they simply can not carry a hazzard / section of rough in front of the tee. They are much in the same position as the women and it gets worse for them when they have to play off the whites in competitions. If the seniors can cope with this at your course, than the women's complaints should have been well and truly dismissed. If the seniors also find length of holes etc a problem than the club would have to make a decision that pleased the majority of members based on the number of seniors and women they have in comparison to normal male members. In most cases this would result in the course being left alone, not being made easier which is how I believe it should be.
HomerJSimpson
Hall of Famer
To be fair to my club, on the 3rd which is a long carry even off the yellows and normally plays into the wind, they have introduced a blue tee on the edge of the hazard for the senior guys which at least gives them a golfers chance (still a good 120 yard carry) of playing over without having to sacrifice a ball everytime
viscount17
Money List Winner
the only issue I have with ladies at my club is that they never play a medal off the measured tee, always off a forward tee location, the men always play off th whites (the senior mens and ladies medals are played in one group but off their respective tees).
the argument is/was that there is only one measured red marker on the tee and that therefore that can't be used, funny there is only one measured white marker on each tee too but no-one seems to fuss.
the argument is/was that there is only one measured red marker on the tee and that therefore that can't be used, funny there is only one measured white marker on each tee too but no-one seems to fuss.
viscount17
Money List Winner
the only issue I have with ladies at my club is that they never play a medal off the measured tee, always off a forward tee location, the men always play off th whites (the senior mens and ladies medals are played in one group but off their respective tees).
the argument is/was that there is only one measured red marker on the tee and that therefore that can't be used, funny there is only one measured white marker on each tee too but no-one seems to fuss.
and we have some seniors blue tees - but I have never seen anyone use them.
the argument is/was that there is only one measured red marker on the tee and that therefore that can't be used, funny there is only one measured white marker on each tee too but no-one seems to fuss.
and we have some seniors blue tees - but I have never seen anyone use them.
Herbie
Tour Winner
I have never had issues with lady golfers, in fact I have had the good fortune to have played some cracking rounds with Ladies of most h/c's and witnessed some superb golf, I had an old Aunt who was a Top Lady being W/Scotland winner who used to kick my butt.
My arguments are with changes to courses to suit (in most cases) a minority of people who should either accept the club they enroled in, move to an easier course, learn to play better or manage their game better. After all, the majority of those Im talking about are never going to win the masters so should just enjoy the golf they can play and not interfere with the golf of others which many of these changes often does. The only places changes for shorter hitters will take place are at clubs where a sympathetic vote goes the way of a minority group(admittedly a group that is getting larger as life span extends and female memberships increase). such groups will never change every course in the world to suit their misfortunes, failing health or weaknesses. It is unfortunate and I sympathise, but not that much, in about 99/100 cases just taking another shot and waiting for your h/c to rise is all that is required.
I never intend to promote the course alterations listed in this thread no matter how weak and feeble I may become, but I will always support suggestions to improve course and make courses more difficult.
My arguments are with changes to courses to suit (in most cases) a minority of people who should either accept the club they enroled in, move to an easier course, learn to play better or manage their game better. After all, the majority of those Im talking about are never going to win the masters so should just enjoy the golf they can play and not interfere with the golf of others which many of these changes often does. The only places changes for shorter hitters will take place are at clubs where a sympathetic vote goes the way of a minority group(admittedly a group that is getting larger as life span extends and female memberships increase). such groups will never change every course in the world to suit their misfortunes, failing health or weaknesses. It is unfortunate and I sympathise, but not that much, in about 99/100 cases just taking another shot and waiting for your h/c to rise is all that is required.
I never intend to promote the course alterations listed in this thread no matter how weak and feeble I may become, but I will always support suggestions to improve course and make courses more difficult.
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
Shortly after I first started playing I was having a lesson with Paul Huggett, the pro at the Nevill in Tunbridge Wells. The 18th hole at this club is a dogleg right and the approach to the green lies alongside the practice ground.
I was hitting those balls with two different coloured halves (anyone remember them) one half yellow, the other half orange. I had hit a couple of them onto the 18th fairway by accident.
Two ladies came up the 18th, the first one knocked her ball up to the green, the second one walked up to one of the two coloured practice balls I had mis-hit and proceeded to play with this ball and putt out with it.
Paul just looked at me, raised his eyebrows and shook his head in disbelief.
And whilst waiting to play on Sunday with three mates of mine, four ladies were on the tenth tee waiting to tee off. Par 3, 144 yards off the reds and three of them had drivers in their hands. We could see it was going to be a joy to follow them so walked round to the 1st (where there was a restriction on fourball play at the time) and played as 2 x 2 balls.
I was hitting those balls with two different coloured halves (anyone remember them) one half yellow, the other half orange. I had hit a couple of them onto the 18th fairway by accident.
Two ladies came up the 18th, the first one knocked her ball up to the green, the second one walked up to one of the two coloured practice balls I had mis-hit and proceeded to play with this ball and putt out with it.
Paul just looked at me, raised his eyebrows and shook his head in disbelief.
And whilst waiting to play on Sunday with three mates of mine, four ladies were on the tenth tee waiting to tee off. Par 3, 144 yards off the reds and three of them had drivers in their hands. We could see it was going to be a joy to follow them so walked round to the 1st (where there was a restriction on fourball play at the time) and played as 2 x 2 balls.
viscount17
Money List Winner
How do the Senior and Lady members at Crowboro' get on? some of the rough off the tees is fearsome and definitely requires a good carry.
