Has Wenger had the bullet yet?

[Dodger]

How long would he have to go without winning anything before you wouldn't consider him a great manager anymore ? Just because you were a good manager at some stage doesn't mean you automatically stay a good manager forever more,surely there comes a point where you have to start asking serious questions.

You could argue that he hasn't adapted his style of play to suit the modern, more defensive game. Ever since Mourinho and Ferguson (and Alex Mcleish) both realised that all you do to stop them is put men behind the ball he hasn't won a thing and hasn't been able to adapt his teams to combat it. Ferguson, for example, has constantly adapted his style of play, particularly in Europe where he realised his style wasn't working so changed, and ever since they have been pretty much a regular in the Champions League semi-finals. Wenger is either too stubborn to change or as in my opinion, just incapable.

And by the way I would still rather have Big Pierre or Ruud up to the that fanny Van Perise.

 

[G_Mulligan]

Sorry I thought you meant current players Obviously if not then yeah there are better strikers in holland like Van Basten or Cruyff and of course in North London there is Henry, Wright and Bergkamp. As for 'Big Pierre' he is a joke and not even close to RVP.

All this talk of Moyes is irrelivant for the simple fact that he would not have the type of players we do at Arsenal as Wenger found 90% of them as youngsters and no one has an eye for young talent quite like Wenger. As for getting the best out his players that is exactly what Wenger does best and works off an amazingly tight budget in the transfer market.

 

[bozza]

Sorry I thought you meant current players Obviously if not then yeah there are better strikers in holland like Van Basten or Cruyff and of course in North London there is Henry, Wright and Bergkamp. As for 'Big Pierre' he is a joke and not even close to RVP.

All this talk of Moyes is irrelivant for the simple fact that he would not have the type of players we do at Arsenal as Wenger found 90% of them as youngsters and no one has an eye for young talent quite like Wenger. As for getting the best out his players that is exactly what Wenger does best and works off an amazingly tight budget in the transfer market.

I know some were not exactley young but moyes got the likes of baines,jagielka,arteta,cahill,pienarr and coleman for half the price you paid for arshavin. Now thats whay you call an eye for talent if you ask me.

Wenger on a tight budget!?

Try having nothing to spend.....thats a tight budget!

 

[Dodger]

Sorry I thought you meant current players Obviously if not then yeah there are better strikers in holland like Van Basten or Cruyff and of course in North London there is Henry, Wright and Bergkamp. As for 'Big Pierre' he is a joke and not even close to RVP.

All this talk of Moyes is irrelivant for the simple fact that he would not have the type of players we do at Arsenal as Wenger found 90% of them as youngsters and no one has an eye for young talent quite like Wenger. As for getting the best out his players that is exactly what Wenger does best and works off an amazingly tight budget in the transfer market.

Any opinion on my first,more serious part of my post?
Yer boss is a has been pal and it's time for folk to wise up to it,I have been saying this for 3 years now,he's living on past achievements when the game was a very different one.Up there with MON as an over rated gaffer.

 

[CrapHacker]

Serious question Crappy - -

Would you rather qualify for CL or win something? Obviously winning PL gets you in anyway.....

It's not quite such a black and white question as some may think.

There is no option to win qualification to the CL - it's a must do, every year. And don't forget that we also need to regularly get to the 1/4s and beyond to ensure we keep the 4 qualification places for future years.

So winning anything else is on top of that.

I've been an Arsenal fan since 1970, since then we've won 3 doubles, 3 other titles, and 4 FA cups. More than most football fans enjoy

2 Doubles, 1 title, and 2 FA cups are during Wenger's reign.

So he's outperformed anyone else in my lifetime.

Obviously it's hugely frustrating to keep on getting within a few points of winning the league these last few years, but until this year I put that down to us punching above our weight rather than as failure.

There are things about Wenger I find annoying, but I'll put up with them ( for the time being at least ) because the good outweighs the bad.

What I find frustrating is all this dumping on Arsenal for their so called 'failure' over the last 6 years.

Given that Arsenal are one of 20 clubs in the Premiership, how many have won anything during our 'bad' run. Forget the League cup - that's just there to shut up the media.

The league has been won by Chelsea twice and 4 times by Man Utd. I've said time and time again, I don't envy either of those two clubs. We can't aford to compete with Chelsea's buying power, and Utd have only managed to do so by gambling the whole club against future success. ( I'll admit they've done it well so far, but it could so easily come crashing down when Fergie gives up )

Other clubs like Liverpool, Man City, Spurs, Newcastle, and to a lesser extent Villa have all spent huge sums of money trying to buy their way into competing with the big two, with no more success than us - castigate their managers before Arsene, because he is the only one to have stayed in CL qualification throughout those years. And he's done it by ensuring our financial future, and he's done it by allowing us to play the most attractive football we've ever played.

As far as the FA cup is concerned. Look at the winners of that trophy. Portsmouth - Harry gambled with them the way Utd are gambling, with the expected results. Liverpool, again they are hopefully coming back to being a half decent side, but what a terrible few years they've had until now. And Chelsea again, and again, and again.

Chelsea have never been a great club, and they have proved that they only know one way to try to buy success - look at the desperate deal they did for Torres. They will be a successful side all the while Abramovich bails them out, then they will slide back to being the 3rd best London club.

Man Utd are going to find it tougher and tougher to compete financially because of their terrible owners. The more clubs like Man City put pressure on them, the nearer breaking point they will get.

Liverpool have gambled hugely on their new strike force, and Kenny has shown in the past that he likes to spend a fair few quid on the way to winning anything. They have to be a lot more consistant from here on in to prove anything against Arsenal.

Man City have spent stupid stupid money on qualifying for the CL and hopefully ( for their sake ) winning the FA cup. The new rules on spending will hit them hard just before they can fully use their money as a weapon.

Spurs. Harry has been a revelation. But he will leave to take over the England job, and I still wouldn't trust him with more than a fiver of my cash. I think Spurs are still going to be just a tad short of a regular CL place.

Arsenal have just got a new owner. I'd love it if he chucked a couple of hundred mill at Arsene and then gave him the ultimatum to win stuff. But I can't see it happening tbh. We are going to have to rely on financing the club from the football side - which is what Wenger has been building these last few years.

All my life we have never been a side to overpay to buy players. Utd do it using the logic that if they overpay by £5mill but then win the title, it's money well spent. Liverpool used to do it. Chelsea don't give a monkey's -it's all peanuts to them.

But we've never done it. So I'm used to it.

We lost Chippy to Italy, and Stapleton to Utd back in the 80s, because even then we didn't have the desire to take that gamble on future succes,

George Graham built his success on buying bargain players like Steve Bould, Lee Dixon, and Alan Smith and blending them with youngsters like Rocky. His side declined once he spent big on Ian Wright.

Arsene's record, once you compare it with his predecesors, is still outstanding

He's won stuff in the past, and I believe he'll do so again.

I had no expectation for this year, so I was surprised about how close we actually got.

Next year, however, is another thing. I'm expecting the FA cup as a mimimum, but with a couple of good purchases, including a new defensive coach like Steve Bould,( or my choice would be Stuart Robson ) we could win everything.

Which would be nice

 

[CrapHacker]

^

^

^

God, that post looks dull.

I know I wouldn't read it.

 

[CrapHacker]

How long would he have to go without winning anything before you wouldn't consider him a great manager anymore ?

We were told that we would be strapped for cash for 5 or 6 years to finance the new stadium.

So let's see what the next two years bring, when there are no financial constraints.

Even if he fails then, I'd still call him a great manager, but by then I'd want him out. My patience is realistic, but not limitless.

 

[NWJocko]

That's a long post but I find it interesting that the defence is always that Arsenal don't spend big...

Koscielny = £8m
Vermaelen = £10m
Rosicky = £10m (ish?)
Arshavin = £14m
Walcott = £12m or so
Nasri = £12m

Even going back a few years Henry was £14m, Wiltord was £12m and Reyes was £17m. Heck, even Bergkamp (although sheer class) was £7m when that was a crazy transfer fee albeit I think Bruce Rioch may have been in charge then.

So, to me, the argument Arsenal don't spend money and just have "home" grown kids doesn't really stand up.

Edit - just read a bit more of your essay.... Whilst Utd do overpay on occasion (berbatov) they also get the likes of Ronaldo for £12m and Hernandez for £7m.

It would be interesting to see a "net spend" over the last few years for each of the "big" clubs. May be closer than you think. I'm not a fan of any of them by the way.

 

[CrapHacker]

Sorry I thought you meant current players Obviously if not then yeah there are better strikers in holland like Van Basten or Cruyff and of course in North London there is Henry, Wright and Bergkamp. As for 'Big Pierre' he is a joke and not even close to RVP.

All this talk of Moyes is irrelivant for the simple fact that he would not have the type of players we do at Arsenal as Wenger found 90% of them as youngsters and no one has an eye for young talent quite like Wenger. As for getting the best out his players that is exactly what Wenger does best and works off an amazingly tight budget in the transfer market.

Any opinion on my first,more serious part of my post?
Yer boss is a has been pal and it's time for folk to wise up to it,I have been saying this for 3 years now,he's living on past achievements when the game was a very different one.Up there with MON as an over rated gaffer.

Not a has been yet, just playing with a different deck to the one think he's had.

Just because the Scots don't like attractive football, doesn't mean to say he has to employ your kind of tactics just yet

 

[G_Mulligan]

Any opinion on my first,more serious part of my post?
Yer boss is a has been pal and it's time for folk to wise up to it,I have been saying this for 3 years now,he's living on past achievements when the game was a very different one.Up there with MON as an over rated gaffer.

Wenger forced other teams to adopt a more defensive strategy that is now becoming more the norm. He is the cause of it and he is not going to join in. The league would be a very boring place if everyone played like Birmingham and Blackburn. Thankfully there are still teams around who like an attacking style of play to keep things exciting. He is not 'living' on past acheivmants what he does for this club on a very tight budget is exceptional and has ensured the survival of this clubs for years to come. If anything his past acheivements are actually hurting him becuase he did it so easily before everyone expects him to keep doing it. He gave us the chance to build our amazing stadium and went 5 years making a nett profit in the transfer market to help fund it while still competing in the CL year after year.

God I love Arsene Wenger

 

[NWJocko]

Any opinion on my first,more serious part of my post?
Yer boss is a has been pal and it's time for folk to wise up to it,I have been saying this for 3 years now,he's living on past achievements when the game was a very different one.Up there with MON as an over rated gaffer.

Wenger forced other teams to adopt a more defensive strategy that is now becoming more the norm. He is the cause of it and he is not going to join in. The league would be a very boring place if everyone played like Birmingham and Blackburn. Thankfully there are still teams around who like an attacking style of play to keep things exciting. He is not 'living' on past acheivmants what he does for this club on a very tight budget is exceptional and has ensured the survival of this clubs for years to come. If anything his past acheivements are actually hurting him becuase he did it so easily before everyone expects him to keep doing it. He gave us the chance to build our amazing stadium and went 5 years making a nett profit in the transfer market to help fund it while still competing in the CL year after year.

God I love Arsene Wenger

How Arsenal fans have short memories......

Wasn't long before Wenger arrived that they bored their way to winning and being succesful under George Graham.

I wonder how many of their fans, during his time, said they'd sooner not be winning and playing nice football...??

It was also Graham's defence that won most of Wenger's trophies at the Arsenal.

As for the "net profit" in the transfer market, he must have sold some players as, per my previous post, Arsenal do spend pretty heavily themselves.

 

[sawtooth]

The point people are missing here is that success is not purely measured by whats in the trophy cabinet.

For me the fact that Wenger has made Arsenal one of the richest (if not the richest) clubs in the world is success. A new stadium that has doubled capacity is success. 13 years of Champions league football is success. Playing stylish football whilst competing for trophies is success. Spending a fraction of what other clubs have spent yet still be able to compete is success. Being better than 16 other clubs in the league every year is success.

If you think Wenger is a failure because he hasnt won a trophy in the last 6 years thats up to you. Most Arsenal fans I know have nothing but respect and admiration for Wenger and hopes that he stays for many more years to come.

 

[bozza]

Any opinion on my first,more serious part of my post?
Yer boss is a has been pal and it's time for folk to wise up to it,I have been saying this for 3 years now,he's living on past achievements when the game was a very different one.Up there with MON as an over rated gaffer.

what he does for this club on a very tight budget is exceptional

I'm sorry but arsenal are not on a very tight budget, the likes of blackpool,wolves,bolton and everton are clubs on tight budgets.

Arsenals budget may look small but only because clubs like man city and chelsea are spending stupid amounts on players.

Anyway the real reason no one like wenger is cause he is a frog!

 

[AuburnWarrior]

The point people are missing here is that success is not purely measured by whats in the trophy cabinet.

For me the fact that Wenger has made Arsenal one of the richest (if not the richest) clubs in the world is success. A new stadium that has doubled capacity is success. 13 years of Champions league football is success. Playing stylish football whilst competing for trophies is success. Spending a fraction of what other clubs have spent yet still be able to compete is success. Being better than 16 other clubs in the league every year is success.

If you think Wenger is a failure because he hasnt won a trophy in the last 6 years thats up to you. Most Arsenal fans I know have nothing but respect and admiration for Wenger and hopes that he stays for many more years to come.

Yep, that's about it.

Wenger is a superb Manager - one of the best ever. He's kept Arsenal in the top four for as long as I can remember.

Success - yes.
Over-rated - no.

 

[G_Mulligan]

George Graham won trophies playing boring football. Wenger has won more trophies playing brilliant exciting football. The thing no one else seems to get is that it does not have to be a choice. We can and have won trophies playing great football and we will do again. If we switched managers there is no guarantee we will win anything but there is a big risk we will drop out of the top four. As long as we are competing for trophies I am 100% behind Wenger and his football philosophy. No Arsenal fan has ever, ever said I would rather play nice football than win trophies but they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[CrapHacker]

How Arsenal fans have short memories......

Wasn't long before Wenger arrived that they bored their way to winning and being succesful under George Graham.

I wonder how many of their fans, during his time, said they'd sooner not be winning and playing nice football...??

It was also Graham's defence that won most of Wenger's trophies at the Arsenal.

Boring, boring Arsenal, eh.

Graham had his best results in the years before he went into '1-0 to the Arsenal' mode.

We won the title in 1989. We won it scoring more goals than anyone else. We won it playing the best football in the league.

Yes we went through a period of defense minded football. You can't blame Wenger for that, I'm afraid. And guess what, we love our club whether we play fast flowing attractive football, or defense minded steady football. It's what being a fan is all about.

And, btw, all of that great defense will happily say that Wenger added years to their careers, and made playing the game more fun, to boot.

 

[CrapHacker]

I'm sorry but arsenal are not on a very tight budget, the likes of blackpool,wolves,bolton and everton are clubs on tight budgets.

Arsenals budget may look small but only because clubs like man city and chelsea are spending stupid amounts on players.

Anyway the real reason no one like wenger is cause he is a frog!

It might sound harsh, but don't compare ourselves with the markability of clubs like Wigan and Blackpool. We're trying to compete with Man Utd and Chelsea. And you have to admit we spend loads less than them.

 

[CrapHacker]

George Graham won trophies playing boring football.

Yes he did.

but he was manager from 1986 to 1995. It was only after we got knocked out of Europe in, I believe, 1992 that he decided that we had to tighten up defensively to win in Europe.

6 years of good football, 3 years of boring football. We won the league cup and the FA cup in those 3 years. We won the league cup and 2 league titles in the first 6 years

Stats are what you make them.

 

[CrapHacker]

That's a long post but I find it interesting that the defence is always that Arsenal don't spend big...

Koscielny = £8m
Vermaelen = £10m
Rosicky = £10m (ish?)
Arshavin = £14m
Walcott = £12m or so
Nasri = £12m

Even going back a few years Henry was £14m, Wiltord was £12m and Reyes was £17m. Heck, even Bergkamp (although sheer class) was £7m when that was a crazy transfer fee albeit I think Bruce Rioch may have been in charge then.

So, to me, the argument Arsenal don't spend money and just have "home" grown kids doesn't really stand up.

Edit - just read a bit more of your essay.... Whilst Utd do overpay on occasion (berbatov) they also get the likes of Ronaldo for £12m and Hernandez for £7m.

It would be interesting to see a "net spend" over the last few years for each of the "big" clubs. May be closer than you think. I'm not a fan of any of them by the way.

Starting from the bottom up, I'd love to see a net spend figure. I think Chelsea would lose that one by quite a bit.

Forget the numbers for Henry etc that you mention, that was before the new ground led to the belt tightening.

You mention Utds buys. The thing about them is that Utd have the kind of budget that can afford a failure for each of their successes. I think Hernandez is one of the buys of the season.

The difficulty that Wenger has had isn't that he has had a zero budget to work with, but that he can't afford an overpriced failure. The only player in that list the Wenger bought at the peak of his powers is Arshavin. All the rest ( with the probable exception of Rosicky ) have at least doubled in value under Wenger's tutilage. Koscielny is one of those players that still needs a couple years to reach his peak, but compared with a potential £20 mill for Jagielka is still a long term bargain.

Arsenal just couldn't afford to go out and buy someone like Rooney, or Torres, so Wenger has had to go out and buy young players who might well become world beaters. There just will not be a £30 million player coming in unless there is a huge change in attitude.

I'm hoping that this close season the board will announce a realistic budget so he can go out a buy a couple of players who are the finished deal. Whether they will be the type of players we need is another question.

 

[freddielong]

Yes but they were paid for by sales, One guy with an attitude problem and one old guy who likes is wife weight pills to City for £43mil

As an Arsenal fan I would give Wenger as long as he wants to be there for me there is no one better

I dont know why I answer these posts cause dodger only starts them to wind me