Handicaps & Countback.

[backwoodsman]

My query relates to how handicap is allocated when using countback to separate level nett scores - and in particular, for players with a handicap of an odd number.
These players get one more stroke on the nine holes with odd numbered SI's than they do on the even numbered SI's. So, when doing countback, are nett scores calculated for each nine (in particular for the back nine) based whether it is the even or odd numbered half. Or is the handicap allowance split exactly in half for each nine with the player being awarded a half stroke for each nine.

As a "for instance"..
Course = par 72, 36 out, 36 back, even SI on front nine, odd SI on back nine.
Player has h/c of 11 and has gross score of 83, 43 going out and 40 coming back.
For countback purposes, what is his nett score on the back nine? 40 minus 6 (as per actual stroke allowances) . Or 40 minus 5.5 (exactly half handicap). Would the same apply if the odd & even SI's were the other way round .

Hope this makes sense. Ta

 

[williamalex1]

We use the stroke index on the card, actual playing H/C.

 

[rulefan]

APPENDIX N
RESOLUTION OF TIES
Committee Procedures 5-A(6) empowers the Committee to determine the method for deciding the result of ties in both stroke play and match play.
The most practicable way to decide ties in club and open handicap stroke play competitions is a card count-back with the winner determined on the basis of the better inward half, last six holes, last three holes etc. Committee Procedures 5-A(6) define this method. In handicap stroke play competitions the fractions of the applicable handicaps are deducted from the gross scores for the applicable holes. In this context CONGU® directs that the exact fractions i.e. one-half, one-third, one-sixth etc. or commonly accepted decimal equivalents are deducted. The fractional or decimal allowances should not be rounded to a whole number.

5-A(6)

• For net competitions where the stroke index allocation as set by the Committee is not used, such as individual stroke play, if the last nine, last six, last three holes scenario is used, one-half, one-third, one-sixth, etc. of the handicaps should be deducted from the score for those holes. Handicap stroke fractions should be applied in accordance with the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.
• In net competitions where the stroke index allocation as set by the Committee is used, such as Four-Ball stroke play, Par/Bogey or Stableford competitions, handicap strokes should be applied consistently with how they were applied for the competition.

 

[Juan Quidonqui]

From CONGU .....
“The most practicable way to decide ties in club and open handicap stroke play competitions is a card count-back with the winner determined on the basis of the better inward half, last six holes, last three holes etc. Committee Procedures 5-A(6) define this method. In handicap stroke play competitions the fractions of the applicable handicaps are deducted from the gross scores for the applicable holes. In this context CONGU® directs that the exact fractions i.e. one-half, one-third, one-sixth etc. or commonly accepted decimal equivalents are deducted. The fractional or decimal allowances should not be rounded to a whole number.”

 

[duncan mackie]

For medal it's gross minus exact fractions and Si are irrelevant.
For all others it's already factored in and the output scores are used.

 

[backwoodsman]

Gents - thanks, especially for the references to Congu. It's confirmed what I thought.

I had someone yesterday suggesting that if the odd SI's are on the back nine, then an "odd handicapper" got an advantage on countback over an "even" because of the extra h/c stroke on the back nine - I was pretty sure that would not be the case. Ta.

 

[Swango1980]

Gents - thanks, especially for the references to Congu. It's confirmed what I thought.

I had someone yesterday suggesting that if the odd SI's are on the back nine, then an "odd handicapper" got an advantage on countback over an "even" because of the extra h/c stroke on the back nine - I was pretty sure that would not be the case. Ta.

A 9 handicapper would get 5 shots on back 9 in Stableford (well, effectively their back 9 points would be used, which allows 5 shots), they'd get 4.5 shots in stroke play. Maybe that's why some believe an odd handicapper gets an advantage in Stableford? I don't, their handicap gives the 9 handicapper 5 shots on the harder back 9, so that should be used in countback.

 

[backwoodsman]

A 9 handicapper would get 5 shots on back 9 in Stableford (well, effectively their back 9 points would be used, which allows 5 shots), they'd get 4.5 shots in stroke play. Maybe that's why some believe an odd handicapper gets an advantage in Stableford? I don't, their handicap gives the 9 handicapper 5 shots on the harder back 9, so that should be used in countback.

Agree about Stableford (but you score your points where you score them - if you see what I mean) - but he was talking about medal/strokeplay.

 

[duncan mackie]

A 9 handicapper would get 5 shots on back 9 in Stableford (well, effectively their back 9 points would be used, which allows 5 shots), .....

Not necessarily - some courses neither split the odds and evens nor spread them evenly; Kings Hill in Kent is an obvious example of both (having played a match there last week it's fresh in my mind).
As Backwoodsman put it in his response to you - you get them where you get them in Stableford.

 

[Swango1980]

Not necessarily - some courses neither split the odds and evens nor spread them evenly; Kings Hill in Kent is an obvious example of both (having played a match there last week it's fresh in my mind).
As Backwoodsman put it in his response to you - you get them where you get them in Stableford.

I know, I meant to caveat it by saying "assuming the odd indices are on the back 9", but I must have deleted it when editing. Louth golf club changed their indices to match the average scores in competitions, meaning something like stroke indexed 1-10 come over a stretch of about 11 holes. Not great for match play, which is what indexes are for in the first place.

 

[rosecott]

We use the stroke index on the card, actual playing H/C.

How does that work then? Is it done manually? Are your SIs based on perceived difficulty? I'm pretty sure that Handicapmaster only offers the recommended countback system.

 

[williamalex1]

How does that work then? Is it done manually? Are your SIs based on perceived difficulty? I'm pretty sure that Handicapmaster only offers the recommended countback system.

Not sure Jim, I'll ask them and report back to you

 

[jim8flog]

We use the computer

 

[cliveb]

My club has a three tee start (1, 8 & 13). This means that the last nine holes are different for the various players. Until a few years ago, we used exact handicap to resolve ties, which seems fairer to me. But then it got changed to the CONGU recommend method. I don't understand why, and still feel that exact handicap is a better approach.

 

[rulie]

My club has a three tee start (1, 8 & 13). This means that the last nine holes are different for the various players. Until a few years ago, we used exact handicap to resolve ties, which seems fairer to me. But then it got changed to the CONGU recommend method. I don't understand why, and still feel that exact handicap is a better approach.

Wouldn't that mean that the player with the highest exact handicap would always win a tie-breaker, or have I misunderstood?

 

[cliveb]

Wouldn't that mean that the player with the highest exact handicap would always win a tie-breaker, or have I misunderstood?

Consider this: two players, A & B with playing handicaps of 16 and 8 respectively.
A scores 90 and B scores 82.
Both net scores are 74; a tie.

Now suppose A's exact handicap is 15.7, and B's is 8.3.
In this case, A's exact net score is 74.3 and B's is 73.7, so B is the winner.

On the other hand, suppose A's exact handicap is 16.3 and B's is 7.7.
Now A's exact net score is 73.7 and B's is 74.3, so A is the winner.

 

[rulefan]

But an exact handicap is not used as a playing handicap. How can anyone score 4.2 on a hole?

 

[YandaB]

But an exact handicap is not used as a playing handicap. How can anyone score 4.2 on a hole?

How can anyone say that someone won a race when it was a dead heat but the "winner" just happend to run the second half faster than the other?

 

[cliveb]

But an exact handicap is not used as a playing handicap. How can anyone score 4.2 on a hole?

True, but irrelevant. There is no suggestion that anyone has a fractional score on any hole.

The idea behind using exact handicap is that you're rewarding the player who is receiving the least help towards their playing handicap. For example, someone whose exact handicap is 9.5 has a playing handicap of 10, and so effectively gets an extra 0.5, while a 10.4 handicapper also plays off 10 and effectively loses 0.4. Shouldn't the player who is giving up something be the one who gets the nod in the event of a tie?

My understanding of the back-9 countback method is that it rewards the golfer who holds it together down the home stretch.
(If I've got that wrong, please explain the actual rationale behind using countback).
The problem is that when you have a multi-tee start, each player's back nine is a different set of holes. If the purpose of countback is to reward the golfer for playing well on their back 9, doing countback on holes 10-18 does nothing of the sort for the player who started on the 10th.

 

[rulefan]

The idea behind using exact handicap is that you're rewarding the player who is receiving the least help towards their playing handicap. For example, someone whose exact handicap is 9.5 has a playing handicap of 10, and so effectively gets an extra 0.5, while a 10.4 handicapper also plays off 10 and effectively loses 0.4. Shouldn't the player who is giving up something be the one who gets the nod in the event of a tie?

Isn't that true of any round? The decimal is rounded conventionally, so some 'lose' and some 'gain'.
The reason (as I understand it) for the decimal exact handicap is that it smooths the transition, when going up or down, for both time and number.