Handicap change midround

[ventura]

Played on Saturday and shot a net 68, SSS is 71. Handicap before the round was 13.4. Applying a cut against SSS would put me on 12.5 so still playing handicap of 13.

Results from Saturday get published 2 hours into a round on Sunday. CSS goes up to 72 so actually cut to 12.2 and get an ESR to 11.2.

What handicap should I have played off on Sunday? 13 when I started the round or 11 when I finished?

 

[Imurg]

13
If results are published after you've started another round then you cut yourself against SSS for that round.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Not sure what software your club uses but at my club the package we use shows the projected CSS once a certain number of cards have been returned. If the competition hasn't been 'closed' then you can see the projected figure or once it has been closed it will show the actual figure so either way you can find out the results pretty much straight away. I assume your club doesn't have this facility? Also, assuming both competitions are at your home club, there is no need to cut yourself prior to the Sunday round as the system will automatically take both results into account and adjust accordingly.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Your logic suggests it should be 13 - you certanly couldn't assume the additional handicap adjustment was going to be applied.

You can't double guess the CSS as disqualifications / adjustments / additions can be made up to the point the comp is closed so providing you were not in a 2 round comp you should play off 13.

Interesting point would be assuming you were playing in a medal round and you got a text from HowDidIDo telling you it was 11 would you apply that before returning the card? I would assume not as the handicap you declared at the start should apply.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Your logic suggests it should be 13 - you certanly couldn't assume the additional handicap adjustment was going to be applied.

You can't double guess the CSS as disqualifications / adjustments / additions can be made up to the point the comp is closed so providing you were not in a 2 round comp you should play off 13.

Interesting point would be assuming you were playing in a medal round and you got a text from HowDidIDo telling you it was 11 would you apply that before returning the card? I would assume not as the handicap you declared at the start should apply.

Interesting you mentioning using the handicap you started with, over the Easter weekend I played in a medal (handicap 11.6) on the saturday and scored a nett 71, SSS at our place is 69 fro a Par 70. I assumed I'd at least buffer, on the monday I entered the Captains card and put my handicap down as 12 and scored 34 Points, again believing I'd buffered.

On the Tuesday they published all the results from the weekend, the CSS on Saturday had risen to 72 so i was cut .2 to 11.4 and then scored me on the monday as if I'd played off 11 and gave me a .1 back.

So I dropped to 11 then back to 12 without knowing.

Was it right to score me off 11 for the monday?

 

[louise_a]

I have had a good look through the CONGU manual regarding the queries in this thread, the OP was correct in stating a handicap of 13 as without knowing the CSS he could only apply a 0.9 cut based on SSS.

Although it doesn't say in the manual (well at least I cannot find it) I would think that if your playing handicap had changed after the first competition then you would play in the next one off the correct handicap, regardless of the fact that you did not know at the time it had changed, you just would not be disqualified for putting an incorrect handicap on your card.

 

[rulefan]

Correct. 6-2b/1.

 

[ventura]

Thanks all.

The Sunday round wasn't a qualifier but a group trip away. Didn't make a difference to the result either way (still won :whoo but good to know my thinking was correct.

 

[HampshireHog]

Just out of interest what happens if you are playing match play on the Sunday, and the revision comes in during the match?

 

[duncan mackie]

I have had a good look through the CONGU manual regarding the queries in this thread, the OP was correct in stating a handicap of 13 as without knowing the CSS he could only apply a 0.9 cut based on SSS.

Although it doesn't say in the manual (well at least I cannot find it) I would think that if your playing handicap had changed after the first competition then you would play in the next one off the correct handicap, regardless of the fact that you did not know at the time it had changed, you just would not be disqualified for putting an incorrect handicap on your card.

I am afraid I don't agree; and Rulefan's 6-2b/1 is only vaguely relevant to the core issue here! I also disagree with what drive4show says so this isn't personal Louise!

The correct handicap is 13 (on the information given this is what CONGU says the player should calculate and play off in these circumstances) and this is what the results should reflect.

 

[duncan mackie]

Just out of interest what happens if you are playing match play on the Sunday, and the revision comes in during the match?

The same as in stroke play - you calculate your handicap according to the requirements of the CONGU manual (13 here) and play from it.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The same as in stroke play - you calculate your handicap according to the requirements of the CONGU manual (13 here) and play from it.

Given my scenario then Duncan, should I have been scored off 12 on the monday and not 11?

 

[rulefan]

Given my scenario then Duncan, should I have been scored off 12 on the monday and not 11?

No. You would have correctly put 12 on your card but the system would have recognised that an adjustment was appropriate and automatically reduced it to 11 (11.4).

 

[duncan mackie]

Given my scenario then Duncan, should I have been scored off 12 on the monday and not 11?

There are 2 seperate aspects here - results and handicapping.

You should have played off 12, you put 12 on the card, and the results should reflect scoring from a handicap of 12.
Handicap adjustments are made on the basis of what should have been once established so, in the example you have given, your score off 11 would be used to establish any handicap adjustment for that round (as it was from your description)

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I also disagree with what drive4show says

Which bit do you disagree with?

 

[duncan mackie]

Which bit do you disagree with?

Also, assuming both competitions are at your home club, there is no need to cut yourself prior to the Sunday round as the system will automatically take both results into account and adjust accordingly.
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?91496-Handicap-change-midround#bekKFEREUkKfrFFy.99

You are responsible for your playing handicap and if the system hasn't been updated prior to the starting of a new competition round you have to calculate your new playing handicap in accordance with 20.11 of the CONGU manual. You put this on your card. Sometimes, as in this case, you get a benefit in the results and sometimes you end up worse off. The system will sort the handicapping in the longer term but for that one comp it may well get the results wrong and need to be overridden.

Projected CSS calculations are also completely irrelevant to this discussion. The competition has either been closed and published prior to starting the new competition or it hasn't. What to use isn't optional.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Also, assuming both competitions are at your home club, there is no need to cut yourself prior to the Sunday round as the system will automatically take both results into account and adjust accordingly.
Read more at http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?91496-Handicap-change-midround#bekKFEREUkKfrFFy.99

You are responsible for your playing handicap and if the system hasn't been updated prior to the starting of a new competition round you have to calculate your new playing handicap in accordance with 20.11 of the CONGU manual. You put this on your card. Sometimes, as in this case, you get a benefit in the results and sometimes you end up worse off. The system will sort the handicapping in the longer term but for that one comp it may well get the results wrong and need to be overridden.

Projected CSS calculations are also completely irrelevant to this discussion. The competition has either been closed and published prior to starting the new competition or it hasn't. What to use isn't optional.

So are you saying that if I play strokeplay events on consecutive days at my home club I can't leave it to the handicapping software to sort out?

 

[duncan mackie]

So are you saying that if I play strokeplay events on consecutive days at my home club I can't leave it to the handicapping software to sort out?

If they are seperate competitions, and the first one hasn't been closed and handicap changes implemented before you tee off the next day then that's exactly what the handicap rules say, together with exactly what to do...

"20.11 If a player returns a Qualifying Score or Scores below his Playing Handicap at his Home
Club or away and is unable to:
(a) report an away score(s) to his Home Club; or
(b) ascertain whether or not his Playing Handicap has been reduced as a result of the
score(s)
he must, before playing in another competition at his Home Club or away, for that
competition make such reduction to his Playing Handicap as shall be appropriate under the
UHS by applying the Competition Scratch Score if known, otherwise the Standard Scratch
Score, to calculate his Nett Differential and handicap reduction.
Should a player not know his Exact Handicap, such reduction should be made from his
Playing Handicap less 0.5, (e.g. If Playing Handicap is 16 then reduction should be from
15.5)."

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

If they are seperate competitions, and the first one hasn't been closed and handicap changes implemented before you tee off the next day then that's exactly what the handicap rules say, together with exactly what to do...

"20.11 If a player returns a Qualifying Score or Scores below his Playing Handicap at his Home
Club or away and is unable to:
(a) report an away score(s) to his Home Club; or
(b) ascertain whether or not his Playing Handicap has been reduced as a result of the
score(s)
he must, before playing in another competition at his Home Club or away, for that
competition make such reduction to his Playing Handicap as shall be appropriate under the
UHS by applying the Competition Scratch Score if known, otherwise the Standard Scratch
Score, to calculate his Nett Differential and handicap reduction.
Should a player not know his Exact Handicap, such reduction should be made from his
Playing Handicap less 0.5, (e.g. If Playing Handicap is 16 then reduction should be from
15.5)."

Fair enough but in the situation I've described above it seems a bit pointless. I "think" I may have been cut so adjust accordingly but it transpires that I haven't because CSS comes down so the software adjusts my handicap back up again. What's the difference to me not adjusting it before playing on the 2nd day and leaving the software to make the appropriate change? (which it would do when both competitions are closed)

 

[rulefan]

Fair enough but in the situation I've described above it seems a bit pointless. I "think" I may have been cut so adjust accordingly but it transpires that I haven't because CSS comes down so the software adjusts my handicap back up again. What's the difference to me not adjusting it before playing on the 2nd day and leaving the software to make the appropriate change? (which it would do when both competitions are closed)

The competition result will reflect the handicap you declared on your card prior to playing the second comp.
Your resultant handicap will be based on the handicap calculated when the first comp is closed.