Greensomes provisional

[woody69]

Playing in our Winter Greensomes match this weekend and I have a query.

Our 9th is a true risk/reward hole. It is a r/hand dog leg left where you can drive over a lake (about 190 yards) to leave a shot into the green of about 120 yards, or you can take the option to drive straight off the tee about 130 yards carry (running out to 300) to leave a longer shot in up to around 200 into the green, but mostly takes the water out of play.

My partner doesn't have the length to ever make the carry so always goes straight off the tee. As we are playing Greensomes our tactic will be for him to take the safer option and for me to go for the carry over the water.

If you get it spot on, you can see the ball hitting the fairway across the lake and rolling out. The problem is you can't always see the ball land due to rushes / trees to the right side of the lake.

So, if we were playing foursomes it wouldn't be a problem. If my drive over the lake was in doubt he would hit the provisional. However, in Greensomes does the provisional still get hit by the partner, or as you are both driving, can I hit a provisional?

I'm asking because we will be getting a shot on this hole and if my partners shot doesn't quite make it (i.e. he is forced to take a provisional), then we have a greater chance of getting down with a bogey and taking the penalty from over the lake rather than going to a provisional that he has hit. Hopefully that makes sense...

So to clarify

He hits his drive and it's no good (for whatever reason) so has to take a provisional. If we take his we are 3 off the tee, but still a long way from the hole and unlikely to get down in 2.
I hit my drive over the water, so could be OK, but we are not 100% sure. At this point, would I be able to hit another, i.e. a provisional over the water or would it be my partner who had to hit the provisional, which ultimately would be pointless as we'd may as well take the prov he has already hit.

Should add I am not asking about being able to take a provisional if the ball is lost in a water hazard etc. I am aware of that. I am asking because the other side of the lake to the right it is some fairway, but the more right you go the more thicker the rough gets and although you can be sure the ball has carried the hazard, you can't find it in the longer rough.

 

[rulie]

Playing in our Winter Greensomes match this weekend and I have a query.

Our 9th is a true risk/reward hole. It is a r/hand dog leg left where you can drive over a lake (about 190 yards) to leave a shot into the green of about 120 yards, or you can take the option to drive straight off the tee about 130 yards carry (running out to 300) to leave a longer shot in up to around 200 into the green, but mostly takes the water out of play.

My partner doesn't have the length to ever make the carry so always goes straight off the tee. As we are playing Greensomes our tactic will be for him to take the safer option and for me to go for the carry over the water.

If you get it spot on, you can see the ball hitting the fairway across the lake and rolling out. The problem is you can't always see the ball land due to rushes / trees to the right side of the lake.

So, if we were playing foursomes it wouldn't be a problem. If my drive over the lake was in doubt he would hit the provisional. However, in Greensomes does the provisional still get hit by the partner, or as you are both driving, can I hit a provisional?

I'm asking because we will be getting a shot on this hole and if my partners shot doesn't quite make it (i.e. he is forced to take a provisional), then we have a greater chance of getting down with a bogey and taking the penalty from over the lake rather than going to a provisional that he has hit. Hopefully that makes sense...

So to clarify

He hits his drive and it's no good (for whatever reason) so has to take a provisional. If we take his we are 3 off the tee, but still a long way from the hole and unlikely to get down in 2.
I hit my drive over the water, so could be OK, but we are not 100% sure. At this point, would I be able to hit another, i.e. a provisional over the water or would it be my partner who had to hit the provisional, which ultimately would be pointless as we'd may as well take the prov he has already hit.

Should add I am not asking about being able to take a provisional if the ball is lost in a water hazard etc. I am aware of that. I am asking because the other side of the lake to the right it is some fairway, but the more right you go the more thicker the rough gets and although you can be sure the ball has carried the hazard, you can't find it in the longer rough.

Many discussions have taken place on this topic. The conclusion seems to have been that it is not covered by the Rules and it is up to the Committee in charge of the competition to outline how provisionals are to be handled in their competition. Once the Committee does that, it will be the correct answer for that competition. Obviously, they should do it before the competition begins.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Good question - and given the amount of greensomes I've played I'm surprised that I don't know the answer. I'm guessing if my ball looked dodgy then I'd play a provisional - it just doesn't feel right that my PP would play a provisional for my tee shot. We then have the choice - play my ball and then as a pair we're playing 4; play my partners ball and we're playing 2. That feels right,

 

[woody69]

Good question - and given the amount of greensomes I've played I'm surprised that I don't know the answer. I'm guessing if my ball looked dodgy then I'd play a provisional - it just doesn't feel right that my PP would play a provisional for my tee shot. We then have the choice - play my ball and then as a pair we're playing 4; play my partners ball and we're playing 2. That feels right,

In foursomes though that is exactly what happens. What doesn't feel right though is he has a tee shot, so it leaves it open to abuse if say I hit mine and it goes off line. He steps up and say, I'll hit a provisional for that ball. He then says, now I'll hit my ball. If that then goes awry, I could say, OK, I'll hit a provisional for his main drive!?

I'll see what the comp secretary says about provisionals as there is nothing in the rules as far as I can see.

 

[duncan mackie]

Many discussions have taken place on this topic. The conclusion seems to have been that it is not covered by the Rules and it is up to the Committee in charge of the competition to outline how provisionals are to be handled in their competition. Once the Committee does that, it will be the correct answer for that competition. Obviously, they should do it before the competition begins.

Exactly - which is why SwingsitlikeHogan hasn't an answer through experience.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Exactly - which is why SwingsitlikeHogan hasn't an answer through experience.

...and thinking further. If my PP played the provisional for my possibly lost ball, and we decided that it was lost - then I would play the next (2nd or 4th) shot whichever ball we chose to play - and that's not really in the 'spirit' or the point of greensomes (if there is such a thing).

 

[woody69]

Comp Sec has replied to my query saying "yes that is correct, if Player A hits a drive that he believes requires a provisional, then he should hit the provisional. Player B still hits his drive as normal."

 

[CliveW]

Are you saying your original ball might be lost in the water hazard?

 

[duncan mackie]

Comp Sec has replied to my query saying "yes that is correct, if Player A hits a drive that he believes requires a provisional, then he should hit the provisional. Player B still hits his drive as normal."

Your comp sec doesn't understand the question!
(Polite version)

A provisional ball is played provisonally on the first one being lost or OOB. If A plays his ball OOB and the pair wish to proceed with that shot then B plays the next shot (and would therefore play the provsional)

 

[duncan mackie]

...and thinking further. If my PP played the provisional for my possibly lost ball, and we decided that it was lost - then I would play the next (2nd or 4th) shot whichever ball we chose to play - and that's not really in the 'spirit' or the point of greensomes (if there is such a thing).

Thats exactly what happens in greensomes or foresomes

 

[doublebogey7]

...and thinking further. If my PP played the provisional for my possibly lost ball, and we decided that it was lost - then I would play the next (2nd or 4th) shot whichever ball we chose to play - and that's not really in the 'spirit' or the point of greensomes (if there is such a thing).

But surely, in greensomes, you choose which players ball you are going to play for the second shot. Therefore you may only play a provisional if both tee shots may be lost or OOB, and you choose at this point who will play the provisional (second shot). If both balls are then found you carry on as normal and chosse which ball now to play, if one ball only is found then you must continue with that ball in both cases discarding the provisional. If neither ball is found then you must continue with the provisional.

 

[rulefan]

Here are 3 suggestions.

A) From a respected rules expert:
1. Teeshots
On each hole both players tee off from their respective teeing grounds.
Before the 2nd stroke the team then selects the ball with which to play out the hole, playing alternate shots.
The selection can be made explicitly (by announcing which ball is selected) or implicitly (by playing a 2nd stroke with either of the balls, or by playing a new ball, other then a Provisional ball, from the teeing ground.)
An explicit selection may be changed before playing the 2nd stroke.
The partner of the player whose ball is selected must play the second stroke with this selected ball. (for playing in incorrect order see Rule 29-3)
Once the selection is made, the non-selected ball becomes a wrong ball.
2. Provisional Balls
After the players have selected the ball, Rule 27-2 is applicable.
Before the selection is made, the following Rules cover the play of a Provisional Ball:
1. A PB can only be played if both balls may be Lost outside a Water Hazard or Out of Bounds.
2. a. Only one of the players may play a PB and the PB must be played after both players have teed off.
b. A PB played before either of the partners has teed off deems the already played ball to be the selected ball.
3. If either of the original balls is found in bounds or is lost in a Water Hazard, the PB must be abandoned.
4. Clause #c of the definition of Lost Ball applies to each original ball separately."


B) From a book called " Golf: It's Rules And Decisions" by Richard Francis first published in 1936.
SELECTIVE DRIVE FOURSOME : Both partners shall put a ball in play from every tee and having done so shall, before another shot be played, determine which ball shall continue for that hole. Having driven, and the selection having been made, the rules of foursome ( not four-ball) then apply and no further selection is permitted. Under this rule, if both balls from the tee be out of bounds, lost or unplayable, or if one ball be one of these and other ball another, then the partners shall decide which ball shall be played, and if the man's ball be chosen then the woman shall play again from the tee and vice versa. If from the tee one player's ball be out of bounds, lost or unplayable, that player may not replay the shot from the tee. Either the partner's ball must be played for that hole ( if the other ball be chosen) the partner shall plasy again from the tee and the ball continued for that hole.


From an old Decision in the combined R&A/USGA Decision Book in 1976.
Rule 15 Decision 65/27/251:
Question.- In a Greensome two partner drove at a bogey three hole; one drive was very poor, but playable, the other out of bounds. the player whose ball was out of bounds played another ball, put it near the pin, and her side got a four with that ball. Was that allowed, or should they have played the poor drive? It was argued that one of the partner would have had to drive again if both balls had been out of bounds.
Answer.- Greensome competitions are not legislated for the Rules Of Golf. They are , however, a modification of foursome, and Rule 15 regarding the order of play should be applied. In the case cited the player who drove out of bounds should not have played a second ball off the tee under Rule 29-1a. If her side decided to select this drive her partner should have played three off the tee, since penalty strokes do not affect the order of play ( Rule 15-1). Since the player played out of turn, her side lost the hole ( Rule 15-2).

 

[woody69]

Are you saying your original ball might be lost in the water hazard?

No

Your comp sec doesn't understand the question!
(Polite version)

A provisional ball is played provisonally on the first one being lost or OOB. If A plays his ball OOB and the pair wish to proceed with that shot then B plays the next shot (and would therefore play the provsional)

I think you have misunderstood his response, unless I have misunderstood you! He is saying, off the tee the player who makes the initial drive will also play a provisional (if needed). So player A takes his shot and it looks potentially lost/OOB, then he will also put a provisional into play. Player B will just take their drive as normal When they get to the balls and the decision is made that the provisional ball played by A becomes the ball in play, then player B will play the next shot.

 

[woody69]

Here are 3 suggestions.

A) From a respected rules expert:
1. Teeshots
On each hole both players tee off from their respective teeing grounds.
Before the 2nd stroke the team then selects the ball with which to play out the hole, playing alternate shots.
The selection can be made explicitly (by announcing which ball is selected) or implicitly (by playing a 2nd stroke with either of the balls, or by playing a new ball, other then a Provisional ball, from the teeing ground.)
An explicit selection may be changed before playing the 2nd stroke.
The partner of the player whose ball is selected must play the second stroke with this selected ball. (for playing in incorrect order see Rule 29-3)
Once the selection is made, the non-selected ball becomes a wrong ball.
2. Provisional Balls
After the players have selected the ball, Rule 27-2 is applicable.
Before the selection is made, the following Rules cover the play of a Provisional Ball:
1. A PB can only be played if both balls may be Lost outside a Water Hazard or Out of Bounds.
2. a. Only one of the players may play a PB and the PB must be played after both players have teed off.
b. A PB played before either of the partners has teed off deems the already played ball to be the selected ball.
3. If either of the original balls is found in bounds or is lost in a Water Hazard, the PB must be abandoned.
4. Clause #c of the definition of Lost Ball applies to each original ball separately."


B) From a book called " Golf: It's Rules And Decisions" by Richard Francis first published in 1936.
SELECTIVE DRIVE FOURSOME : Both partners shall put a ball in play from every tee and having done so shall, before another shot be played, determine which ball shall continue for that hole. Having driven, and the selection having been made, the rules of foursome ( not four-ball) then apply and no further selection is permitted. Under this rule, if both balls from the tee be out of bounds, lost or unplayable, or if one ball be one of these and other ball another, then the partners shall decide which ball shall be played, and if the man's ball be chosen then the woman shall play again from the tee and vice versa. If from the tee one player's ball be out of bounds, lost or unplayable, that player may not replay the shot from the tee. Either the partner's ball must be played for that hole ( if the other ball be chosen) the partner shall plasy again from the tee and the ball continued for that hole.


From an old Decision in the combined R&A/USGA Decision Book in 1976.
Rule 15 Decision 65/27/251:
Question.- In a Greensome two partner drove at a bogey three hole; one drive was very poor, but playable, the other out of bounds. the player whose ball was out of bounds played another ball, put it near the pin, and her side got a four with that ball. Was that allowed, or should they have played the poor drive? It was argued that one of the partner would have had to drive again if both balls had been out of bounds.
Answer.- Greensome competitions are not legislated for the Rules Of Golf. They are , however, a modification of foursome, and Rule 15 regarding the order of play should be applied. In the case cited the player who drove out of bounds should not have played a second ball off the tee under Rule 29-1a. If her side decided to select this drive her partner should have played three off the tee, since penalty strokes do not affect the order of play ( Rule 15-1). Since the player played out of turn, her side lost the hole ( Rule 15-2).

Interesting. None of those suggestions are what our comp secretary has stated though.

 

[pogle]

Interesting. None of those suggestions are what our comp secretary has stated though.

I think that is why Duncan is suggesting your comp secretary doesn't understand the question, which I have interpreted as being a very polite way of saying your comp sec is mistaken.

I cannot see how a player that plays the tee shot also provisionally plays a ball in case his own may be lost. In foursomes the player's partner is required to play the provisional, because the team make alternate strokes. The same principle of alternate strokes applies in greensomes, other than you get to choose which tee shot to play.

 

[rulefan]

Interesting. None of those suggestions are what our comp secretary has stated though.

This is what happens when people play outside the RoG. Everyone makes up their own rules..

 

[cookelad]

Get better tactics! Your partner goes first and stuffs his in the bundoo, you take an iron out put it in the fairway, why would you take on the high risk shot (on the 9th) after your partner has messed up the safety?

 

[louise_a]

If player A's ball is lost then player B, would play the next shot from the original spot, as a provisional is played to save walking back to the tee, then the provisional should be played by player B.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

OK - @rulefan's post clarifies it for me. I wouldn't have known to do what is suggested - but it makes sense.

The key point for me to remember this is that the provisional is only a contingency against having looked for a ball and not found it - then choosing to go back to the tee. The tee shots are over. In choosing to go back to the tee you have put the player who hit the lost ball 'in play'- and so chosen - and so the new ball from the tee would be hit by his partner.

 

[woody69]

I think that is why Duncan is suggesting your comp secretary doesn't understand the question, which I have interpreted as being a very polite way of saying your comp sec is mistaken.

I cannot see how a player that plays the tee shot also provisionally plays a ball in case his own may be lost. In foursomes the player's partner is required to play the provisional, because the team make alternate strokes. The same principle of alternate strokes applies in greensomes, other than you get to choose which tee shot to play.

Yeah, seems I did misunderstand what Duncan was saying and this has clarified it for me. Hmmm it does make sense when you put it like that...

This is what happens when people play outside the RoG. Everyone makes up their own rules..

But as has been pointed out, Greensomes isn't really covered in the RoG is it? Making up rules seems to be the only thing they can do!

Get better tactics! Your partner goes first and stuffs his in the bundoo, you take an iron out put it in the fairway, why would you take on the high risk shot (on the 9th) after your partner has messed up the safety?

I used freemaptools to check the distances and the carry from the tee to the fairway with the "safe" option is 150 yards. The carry over the longer part with the short shot into the green is 210 yards. I'd use a driver for both because you want it to run out to around 230-250 with the "safe" route. There is definitely less risk because if you stuff your drive to only 180 you'll still clear the water. With the longer route anything else and you're in.

I guess we could take the approach you suggest, but where is the fun in that!