GM Article - Handicap System Ruining Comps for Low Handicaps

[Slab]

I see this red herring a lot on here, yes have divisions for the sweep, but there's still only one "winner" of the overall comp (or in England Board Comp winner perhaps), divisions do nothing for that, and previously it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

Is there? When I've entered a comp with divisions there isn't an overall winner. There's a winner/2nd etc per division. To all intent its two or three comps running same day with a mixed field (I might find myself in a group with players I'm not even competing against)

I'd guess some comps demand an overall winner (maybe a Board type thing) so they'll be the minority and will need careful consideration re format, conditions of entry/qualification criteria etc but again not something whs has to change for

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sensing at my place there is a move for low-mid SF and better players setting up their own weekly summer rollup (as they almost feel excluded from winning many club comps maybe?).

Playing off scratch and stick something like £10 a throw to enter. Makes it well worth playing in to win…and not so worth playing in if you never have a chance to win it - so off 7 I doubt I’d play regularly…and maybe they only fit in higher Hi players such as myself as the take up on their tee booking accommodates and they need the numbers. Would also give the better players more regular strong competition so possibly improving things all round for such as the club teams playing in scratch comps.

I’ve got a pointer myself next week on this as on Tuesday I play a scratch match off back tees against a +2 guy . I tell myself it’s matchplay so anything can happen. I also have a match next week off front tees giving opponent 7 shots - I expect to have more chance against him than the +2 guy, but as I’ve never played with him before I have no idea what he’s like off his front tee PH of 12 (I’m 5 off front tees ).

 

[Jasonr]

I think the problem is that as a higher handicapper your swing between a great round and a rubbish round can be massive. If for the sake of example and simplicity you go around most of the time +/- 100. You can have a really good round and throw in a 89-91 but you are also just as likely to throw in a 115-120. That's a difference of 31 strokes at the extreme. Lower HC will be a lot more consistent with their scoring and their swing may be 5-10 shots between good and awful. A lower competing against a higher HC on an amazing (for their ability) round just can't and as there tends to be more higher than lower HC this must happen often.

Perhaps having an adjustment within WHS or HDID that tempers the score of a brilliant round and the awful round to bring it more in line with the realistic ability of the player at that time. I'm sure that's a massively complicated research and algorithm project to implement than my simple sentence suggests.

This of course assumes that every golfer and trying to play his best each time to keep chipping away at that HC but not all do this and any system can be manipulated.

 

[patricks148]

How do they get their competitive golf then? Presumably they like to play a lot, lower h/c tend to be both competitive and driven. They need to be to stay low. If they are not playing in their club comps, how do they stay sharp?

Equally, does you club close off the course on competition day and does that cause a problem for those not wanting to play in the comps any more? Work all week, want to play on Saturday...........

I'm not having a pop, I'm interested in how low golfers manage if they are not going to play club comps.

one of the guys i know is +4 he only plays in elite comps and the club silver trophy's of which there are only 10 and the club champs all of which are scratch or have a scratch medal as part of the comp, he doesn't play any handicap comps at the club. we have a lots of your boys who are really low and none ever play the comps any longer. Before WHS most played but not now. Sandy Scott Played in everything and he was +5

 

[Mandofred]

How do they get their competitive golf then? Presumably they like to play a lot, lower h/c tend to be both competitive and driven. They need to be to stay low. If they are not playing in their club comps, how do they stay sharp?

Equally, does you club close off the course on competition day and does that cause a problem for those not wanting to play in the comps any more? Work all week, want to play on Saturday...........

I'm not having a pop, I'm interested in how low golfers manage if they are not going to play club comps.

Luckily I can play during the week, but it seems that there is a comp every bloody Saturday. If I worked, I'd have to play in a comp just to be able to play....little purely social golf.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Luckily I can play during the week, but it seems that there is a comp every bloody Saturday. If I worked, I'd have to play in a comp just to be able to play....little purely social golf.

This is a real problem at a lot of clubs, certainly the ones with bigger memberships. You either play in the comp or you don't play at the weekend. Personally, I wouldn't restrict tee times for comps but that is another thread entirely.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

This is a real problem at a lot of clubs, certainly the ones with bigger memberships. You either play in the comp or you don't play at the weekend. Personally, I wouldn't restrict tee times for comps but that is another thread entirely.

It’s nonsense that players have to play in a compt to get access to their course on a weekend.

What difference does it make?

 

[SteveJay]

Having read all these valid comments, for me, the one thing that people haven't seemed to mention is that the handicap system should allow all abilities to compete on a level playing field. Divisions shouldn't really be necessary with a handicap system that functioned well.

What I am reading, and seeing week in and week out, is that very low handicappers are being disadvantaged by the current system, making it practically impossible for them to compete whilst those higher handicappers can win regularly. If the system was fair there would be an even distribution of winners, relative to the distribution of handicaps across member numbers.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

Having read all these valid comments, for me, the one thing that people haven't seemed to mention is that the handicap system should allow all abilities to compete on a level playing field. Divisions shouldn't really be necessary with a handicap system that functioned well.

What I am reading, and seeing week in and week out, is that very low handicappers are being disadvantaged by the current system, making it practically impossible for them to compete whilst those higher handicappers can win regularly. If the system was fair there would be an even distribution of winners, relative to the distribution of handicaps across member numbers.

The problem with handicaps is they are not all created equally. So there has never been, and will never be a level playing field for handicap competitions.

The only way to have a level playing field is to play off scratch. Even then there will be people playing to different rules.

 

[Orikoru]

Having read all these valid comments, for me, the one thing that people haven't seemed to mention is that the handicap system should allow all abilities to compete on a level playing field. Divisions shouldn't really be necessary with a handicap system that functioned well.

What I am reading, and seeing week in and week out, is that very low handicappers are being disadvantaged by the current system, making it practically impossible for them to compete whilst those higher handicappers can win regularly. If the system was fair there would be an even distribution of winners, relative to the distribution of handicaps across member numbers.

There probably is though, or not far from it. As has been mentioned, high handicappers have more fluctuation in their scores, and there are more of them, so it is always more likely that a high handicapper wins for those reasons. Low handicappers still win as well from time to time. But they have selective memories I guess, so if one particular low guy doesn't win for a while, and he sees high handicappers winning 4 weeks out of 5, he thinks it's a problem, despite the fact that 80% of the club members might be 'high handicappers' to him, in which case it would be about right.

 

[Orikoru]

The problem with handicaps is they are not all created equally. So there has never been, and will never be a level playing field for handicap competitions.

The only way to have a level playing field is to play off scratch. Even then there will be people playing to different rules.

That just means 75% of your members cease to play competitions and potentially jack their memberships in altogether. Not a great idea for the club as a business.

 

[Deleted member 29109]

That just means 75% of your members cease to play competitions and potentially jack their memberships in altogether. Not a great idea for the club as a business.

I wasn’t offering an opinion on whether it was a good idea or not. Just the notion of handicap competition being fair is completely false, and has always been.

And I think a lot more than 75% of members would stop playing. At my place comps would probably be won by a pool of about 10.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I think the problem is that as a higher handicapper your swing between a great round and a rubbish round can be massive. If for the sake of example and simplicity you go around most of the time +/- 100. You can have a really good round and throw in a 89-91 but you are also just as likely to throw in a 115-120. That's a difference of 31 strokes at the extreme. Lower HC will be a lot more consistent with their scoring and their swing may be 5-10 shots between good and awful. A lower competing against a higher HC on an amazing (for their ability) round just can't and as there tends to be more higher than lower HC this must happen often.

Perhaps having an adjustment within WHS or HDID that tempers the score of a brilliant round and the awful round to bring it more in line with the realistic ability of the player at that time. I'm sure that's a massively complicated research and algorithm project to implement than my simple sentence suggests.

This of course assumes that every golfer and trying to play his best each time to keep chipping away at that HC but not all do this and any system can be manipulated.

If there are 50 high handicappers in the field, one of them is going to have the game of his life. This means the low handicappers don't stand a chance of winning. But it also means the other 49 high handicappers don't stand a chance either.

 

[clubchamp98]

How do they get their competitive golf then? Presumably they like to play a lot, lower h/c tend to be both competitive and driven. They need to be to stay low. If they are not playing in their club comps, how do they stay sharp?

Equally, does you club close off the course on competition day and does that cause a problem for those not wanting to play in the comps any more? Work all week, want to play on Saturday...........

I'm not having a pop, I'm interested in how low golfers manage if they are not going to play club comps.

GP cards.
I have always thought bogey comps against the course the hardest format as the course always gets par and dosnt make mistakes.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

How do they get their competitive golf then? Presumably they like to play a lot, lower h/c tend to be both competitive and driven. They need to be to stay low. If they are not playing in their club comps, how do they stay sharp?

Equally, does you club close off the course on competition day and does that cause a problem for those not wanting to play in the comps any more? Work all week, want to play on Saturday...........

I'm not having a pop, I'm interested in how low golfers manage if they are not going to play club comps.

Just doesn't play competitively anymore, practices, bounce games and play in club matches

Our medals are a Monday through summer, couple of hours blocked off and tons of chance to play medal outwith the medal times, we've made it more flexible, hasn;t helped in the least

 

[Deleted member 30522]

Is there? When I've entered a comp with divisions there isn't an overall winner. There's a winner/2nd etc per division. To all intent its two or three comps running same day with a mixed field (I might find myself in a group with players I'm not even competing against)

I'd guess some comps demand an overall winner (maybe a Board type thing) so they'll be the minority and will need careful consideration re format, conditions of entry/qualification criteria etc but again not something whs has to change for

[1] Yes. How do you divide your trophies, does each division winner get a third of the cup?
[2] Pretty sure that's exactly what I said wasn't it?

 

[RichA]

Out of interest, how large are the fields where high handicap players are winning disproportionately often?
At my small club with most competition fields being fewer than 30, the R&A guidance HERE actually suggests we should so be playing off 100% CH rather than 95%, but I haven't heard anyone complaining.
Ironically, the highest Stableford comp score in the last 12 months was 43 by a 7-handicap player going round in gross par for the first time in his life, the filthy bandit.

 

[Orikoru]

Our last few weekend comps have been won by the following:
12: net -4
18: 38 points
19: net -1
5: 37 points
18: net -3
8: net -4
14: 41
8: net -3
7: 41 points

Yeah I don't really think we're having a problem with high handicappers this year. Unless it's because high handicappers struggle more when the course is sodden with rain..

 

[Slab]

[1] Yes. How do you divide your trophies, does each division winner get a third of the cup?
[2] Pretty sure that's exactly what I said wasn't it?

Every comps a trophy, I'd have thought that would be the exception. Plush club

I don't know but I'd have guessed that worldwide most comps aren't trophy comps and don't require an overall winner

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Unless it's because high handicappers struggle more when the course is sodden with rain..

To be fair, that is the case. Once the ball starts rolling again it really helps the mid and higher guys who can't carry the ball as far as the better ball strikers.

How much it skews the stats, I don't know . I do know that I'll score better during a dry spell though