GM Article - Handicap System Ruining Comps for Low Handicaps

[Orikoru]

Yes but if your a club member and like competition golf your options are very limited if you stick to medal only.

I’m off 6 can’t really beat the scratch players but can’t beat the 12/20 handicappers.
We had 169 entrants on Saturday I shot 69 net and was 10th I was the only single figure in the top 10.

There’s no perfect system imo so everyone has a different perspective depending where you are on the handicap list.

I'm just saying in medal it's probably slightly better than in Stableford. If these guys are moaning they can't compete with 42 points and so on, then to continue entering and moaning about it is simply banging your head against the wall - pointless. I don't think the comps are that limited, my club will have at least one or two medals every month. Including a lot of the major board comps.

Yeah, I don't think it's a WHS issue as low handicappers have been moaning about high handicappers since the dawn of time.

 

[SteveW86]

Perhaps this is just a mentality difference for someone who is off scratch or very low handicap. The mentality that gets them that low also makes them want to go out and win every event?

I think the 'problem' (if it is one) must be worse in Stablefords than medals. In a medal your high handicappers are going to have blow-up holes of 8, 9, 10 that take them out of contention you would think, whereas in Stableford it's just a blob and move on. If I was a scratch player (never going to happen but yeah) I'd probably not bother with Stableford comps and just stick to the medals. If the course is playing difficult then a medal tends to be won by a better player than the average Stableford comp I think.

I think once you get below a certain handicap every round is viewed as a medal round anyway, you just don’t get enough shots to play with to be able to absorb double bogeys into an “excellent” round. High handicaps do have that luxury.

 

[Orikoru]

I think once you get below a certain handicap every round is viewed as a medal round anyway, you just don’t get enough shots to play with to be able to absorb double bogeys into an “excellent” round. High handicaps do have that luxury.

But that's what I'm saying - a double bogey isn't a bad hole for a high handicapper anyway. Their bad holes are triples, quadruples or more. And in medal that's costing them 2 or 3 or 4 shots rather than a blob in Stableford where the damage is limited.

 

[clubchamp98]

But that's what I'm saying - a double bogey isn't a bad hole for a high handicapper anyway. Their bad holes are triples, quadruples or more. And in medal that's costing them 2 or 3 or 4 shots rather than a blob in Stableford where the damage is limited.

Yes but the fields are set for the type of entrants (at mine anyway.)
So most comps are Stablefords.

The club caters for its members and that’s fine.

My only complaint with WHS is the GP cards it’s far to easy to manipulate the system.

 

[Orikoru]

Yes but the fields are set for the type of entrants (at mine anyway.)
So most comps are Stablefords.

The club caters for its members and that’s fine.

My only complaint with WHS is the GP cards it’s far to easy to manipulate the system.

Fair enough. Ours are mostly Stableford in winter, but through the summer it's probably more like half & half medal/Stableford.

Agree with you on the bottom line. With the app it's easier than ever to pretty much get the handicap you want with nobody checking. Even with legit honest players putting in 2 or 3 cards a week, they can hit a bad bit of form and go up 2 or 3 shots in very little time, which I think is wrong.

 

[Neilds]

At my club, which I suspect is fairly typical, we have just over 1000 members. Less than 70 have a HI of less than 10. Statistically people with a handicap higher than this is going to win more often as there is a lot more of them. And that is before you factor in those players who don't enter club competitions as they want to keep there HI low so they can play County events, Opens, etc.

 

[YandaB]

That’s an interesting statistic


Do you have the results to show it ?


And what are you calling “low” and “high”


As an example all our boards comps - none were won by anyone in single figures , KO’s apart from scratch - all won by someone 10 and above - last year

The funniest thing is the 10 -20 handicaps always won the main club KO - but because there was a scratch KO and a high HC KO ( 18 and above ) as well they even then created another KO for the 10-20

In our medals and Stablefords - no one below 5 has won div 1

So far this year one board comp was won by a scratch player when the weather was horrific but the rest are carrying on the trend from last year

Scrambles - won by mid to high every single time


They did finally decide to do a “gross OOM” because they turned down doing a “best gross” - because they said - only 5 or 6 would win


I don’t really have a chance of winning any comp so I just play for fun these days anyway

I'd previously shared the charts that show old cat 1's have a better than most chance of winning:


From the other thread on a similar topic last time: https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/whs-current-gm-article.115918/page-6#post-2688569

The estimate of Cat 1's never having a chance on 20% of the competitions comes from this graph, where I was considering that a cat 1 has no chance of getting 42 points or more (very little chance of getting 40/41 but possible) :


So putting the 2 things together, on the days when the scoring is not phenomenal, Cat 1's have a much better chance of winning. Their issue is being able to predict when those days will be

 

[Slab]

Just re-read it, its actually a bit funny

“I played in the open competition at Cleeve Hill and on the Sunday I shot the lowest gross score and didn’t even get a pat on the back. It was playing really tough and two people came in with 44 points. “I might sound a bit bitter, and I know there are scratch events I can go and enter, but I’d beaten one of these people by 19 shots – averaging more than one shot a hole less than them – and they got to sit there and celebrate the win.

The fella entered an Open handicap comp that wasn't lowest gross as the winner or even as a prize. Now he complains there was no lowest gross prize... after he shot lowest gross!

Congrats mate but maybe read the entry sheet first (& to cleeve hill, maybe think about having a lowest gross prize next year, its usually worthwhile rewarding the best player on the day)

 

[bobmac]

Why do some clubs have a best gross prize and handicap divisions in their comps?

 

[jim8flog]

Where I play I do not think the new handicap system has had any real impact on comp entry particularly in Seniors comps.

The main impact on comps where I play is simply a lot of players no longer want to play in them influenced by what the club has done with entry fees.

In main Saturday comps we run 3 divisions so the high handicapper low handicapper debate does not exist.

 

[Orikoru]

Just re-read it, its actually a bit funny

“I played in the open competition at Cleeve Hill and on the Sunday I shot the lowest gross score and didn’t even get a pat on the back. It was playing really tough and two people came in with 44 points. “I might sound a bit bitter, and I know there are scratch events I can go and enter, but I’d beaten one of these people by 19 shots – averaging more than one shot a hole less than them – and they got to sit there and celebrate the win.

The fella entered an Open handicap comp that wasn't lowest gross as the winner or even as a prize. Now he complains there was no lowest gross prize... after he shot lowest gross!

Congrats mate but maybe read the entry sheet first (& to cleeve hill, maybe think about having a lowest gross prize next year, its usually worthwhile rewarding the best player on the day)

Yeah I thought the same to be honest. You know before you start that there's no gross prize so expecting someone to come and give you hug afterwards for getting best gross is a bit silly. It's sort of like football fans who brag about having the most possession or the better xG rating when they've lost 4-1.

It also shows a completely lack of understanding of the importance of having a handicap system in my opinion. He's advocating capping the handicaps at 18 for comps - that's fine but then 50% of the field doesn't bother entering comps ever again, and possibly even jacks their membership in until they're able to compete off 18. Not great for golf clubs at all.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Sam is a member of the forum but don’t think he has been around for a while

When it comes to his Open at Cleeve Hill , the course is very tough , yet on a day when the weather was horrific people were coming in with over 40 points

 

[jim8flog]

Why do some clubs have a best gross prize and handicap divisions in their comps?

When I was a relatively low handicap in seniors comps as was one of mates it was something we both pushed for because in seniors comps at our club division 1 was up to 16 handicap. From memory we had less than 10 players at that time who were single figure players in a field of over 100 players.
New committee - new thoughts and they no longer pay it.

It was only paid out in handicap medals and not stableford comps.

At one time the club had it but has also been dropped by them.

 

[Slab]

Sam is a member of the forum but don’t think he has been around for a while

When it comes to his Open at Cleeve Hill , the course is very tough , yet on a day when the weather was horrific people were coming in with over 40 points

I thought I recognized the 'handle' credited to an image in the article

 

[Orikoru]

I thought I recognized the 'handle' credited to an image in the article

It won't let me tag him so he must have self-deleted. He was MendieGK on here.

Edit: tell a lie, he still exists: https://forums.golfmonthly.com/members/mendiegk.17589/ Not sure why it wouldn't let me tag then. He's not been on here since 2022.

 

[Deleted member 30522]

'The Handicap System In Golf Has Ruined Club Competitions. It’s The Only Sport That Rewards Mediocrity'

Many scratch golfers and low-handicappers are becoming increasingly incensed with golf’s handicap system. But what is their gripe and is there a solution?

www.golfmonthly.com

Seems a very valid point and it’s a theory and discussion that’s prob been happening in many clubs up and down the land

Our lowest handicapper now plays nothing except the clubber, and our participation numbers are way down to almost half what we were seeing under WHS. There's also a lot of dissatisfaction with the SG App so could be a double whammy, but no doubt the goal of WHS has had the opposite effect for us

 

[Deleted member 30522]

I'm sure that as a low handicapper you might well feel that it's a valid point.

I'm also quite certain that the discussion is happening up and down the land. Fully backed up, and egged on with, anecdotal evidence.

What I'm also certain of, is that no evidence has been provided to back up the theory. However, I have seen evidence to the contrary. I fully accept that there are probably 20% of competitions that low handicappers never have a chance of winning. That simply means that low cappers are even more likely to win the other 80%.

Pure rubbish mate, the only anecdotal thing here is your comment. Fergus Bissett with the aid of HDID did an excellent review of the date here.....

Data Reveals World Handicap System Is Levelling Playing Field

Golf Monthly has obtained data from HowDidiDo that shows the World Handicap System is working effectively to make competition fairer.

www.golfmonthly.com

 

[Slab]

Our lowest handicapper now plays nothing except the clubber, and our participation numbers are way down to almost half what we were seeing under WHS. There's also a lot of dissatisfaction with the SG App so could be a double whammy, but no doubt the goal of WHS has had the opposite effect for us

A pity
It (whs) seems to be flexible enough to be worked with though. As it’s a world system & not a bespoke system for xyz club, it’ll rely on each club/county/country using it to best ‘fit’ their comps i.e category’s, divisions, format, set-up etc while considering the demographic of entrants

Meaning for example a club with just a couple of scratch players are unlikely to make 0-5 a division but if they have a couple of dozen ppl in that range then they’d be daft not to have one. WHS requires no changing in order to make that happen

 

[Deleted member 30522]

A pity
It (whs) seems to be flexible enough to be worked with though. As it’s a world system & not a bespoke system for xyz club, it’ll rely on each club/county/country using it to best ‘fit’ their comps i.e category’s, divisions, format, set-up etc while considering the demographic of entrants

Meaning for example a club with just a couple of scratch players are unlikely to make 0-5 a division but if they have a couple of dozen ppl in that range then they’d be daft not to have one. WHS requires no changing in order to make that happen

I see this red herring a lot on here, yes have divisions for the sweep, but there's still only one "winner" of the overall comp (or in England Board Comp winner perhaps), divisions do nothing for that, and previously it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Our lowest handicapper now plays nothing except the clubber, and our participation numbers are way down to almost half what we were seeing under WHS.

How do they get their competitive golf then? Presumably they like to play a lot, lower h/c tend to be both competitive and driven. They need to be to stay low. If they are not playing in their club comps, how do they stay sharp?

Equally, does you club close off the course on competition day and does that cause a problem for those not wanting to play in the comps any more? Work all week, want to play on Saturday...........

I'm not having a pop, I'm interested in how low golfers manage if they are not going to play club comps.