GM Article - Handicap System Ruining Comps for Low Handicaps

[wjemather]

I'm not missing the point.
I'll try once more .....

At one of the many clubs that don't have a best gross prize....

150 people enter a comp £3 each.
£450
12 low h/cps have little or no chance of winning anything as it's all nett so complain and get told, if you don't like it, don't enter.

OR

150 people enter a comp £3 each.

It's still £450

Most enter the net comp
12 enter the scratch comp.

12 scratch entrants x £3=£36 minus admin cut 50p each, leaves £2.50 x 12 =£30
The lowest score by the scratch entrants wins £30

The remaining 138 players x £2.50 = £345
£115 per division
£70 first prize
£30 second prize
£15 third prize
Club cut is £75

The high h/caps don't contribute to the scratch prize and the low h/cps don't contribute into the net prizes.
Therefor, the low h/cps can no longer complain about not having a chance of winning and the lowest score gets recognised and rewarded.

At 99% of clubs, there is zero chance of getting anywhere close to a dozen entrants for a regular scratch comp.

 

[harpo_72]

At 99% of clubs, there is zero chance of getting anywhere close to a dozen entrants for a regular scratch comp.

Anyone one on 5 or below is in for a shout .. unless of course they are just hcp fiddling? Or vanity hcps .
The point is why should the field pay for a prize for lowest gross when the low handicappers are saying they are not competitive with the higher handicappers .. Bob’s suggestion works the low handicappers would still enter as they think nett golf is mediocre

 

[bobmac]

At 99% of clubs, there is zero chance of getting anywhere close to a dozen entrants for a regular scratch comp.

I would suggest, any Cat I golfer given the choice of playing in a scratch comp or a net comp, many would pick the scratch comp.
In my opinion

 

[wjemather]

Anyone one on 5 or below is in for a shout .. unless of course they are just hcp fiddling? Or vanity hcps .
The point is why should the field pay for a prize for lowest gross when the low handicappers are saying they are not competitive with the higher handicappers .. Bob’s suggestion works the low handicappers would still enter as they think nett golf is mediocre

I would suggest, any Cat I golfer given the choice of playing in a scratch comp or a net comp, many would pick the scratch comp.
In my opinion

No chance. None at all. No-one with a handicap more than 3 or 4 higher than the lowest 2 or 3 players is entering a regular scratch comp (unless they are completely delusional about their chances of winning or like throwing money away). My only reason for entering scratch opens and county/regional/national championships is for a great value 36+ hole away day (or two) - I've never been under any illusion that I'm going to compete for the prizes against the properly low guys. In regular club comps, I'll always take my chances in the level playing field of the handicap comp - no way am I handicapping myself by effectively giving 4+ shots away.

The low handicappers saying they are not competitive are really asking for the handicap system to give them an unfair advantage because they see themselves as better players who deserve it (and it's what they had under the old system).

 

[bobmac]

No chance. None at all. No-one with a handicap more than 3 or 4 higher than the lowest 2 or 3 players is entering a regular scratch comp (unless they are completely delusional about their chances of winning or like throwing money away). My only reason for entering scratch opens and county/regional/national championships is for a great value 36+ hole away day (or two) - I've never been under any illusion that I'm going to compete for the prizes against the properly low guys. In regular club comps, I'll always take my chances in the level playing field of the handicap comp - no way am I handicapping myself by effectively giving 4+ shots away.

The low handicappers saying they are not competitive are really asking for the handicap system to give them an unfair advantage because they see themselves as better players who deserve it (and it's what they had under the old system).

Completely disagree.
We are not talking about county/regional/national championships, we're talking about Cat I club golfers choosing not to compete in club nett comps because they would stand no chance of winning. I know I've been there.
And to say that the handicap comps are played on a level playing field is ludicrous

 

[Slab]

I do wonder if running a scratch comp alongside every nett comp is viable though. Prize might be pretty minor compared to any/all nett prizes

& if it isn’t a separate scratch comp then its simply a division for lowest gross within a nett comp, which means if they can opt out of divisions they don't fancy then any/every player in the field should be given the same option to opt out of any division they don’t think they can win too

So a 10h/cap could opt out of the div3 and a 32 h/cap could opt out of div1 etc , bit of a nightmare really

 

[bobmac]

I do wonder if running a scratch comp alongside every nett comp is viable though. Prize might be pretty minor compared to any/all nett prizes

& if it isn’t a separate scratch comp then its simply a division for lowest gross within a nett comp, which means if they can opt out of divisions they don't fancy then any/every player in the field should be given the same option to opt out of any division they don’t think they can win too

So a 10h/cap could opt out of the div3 and a 32 h/cap could opt out of div1 etc , bit of a nightmare really

The OP was asking for solutions to a perceived problem that the handicap system was ruining club comps.
Do you not think that having divisions is admitting there is a problem with handicaps?
So far, there has only been 2 suggestions to help lower h/caps feel more involved in the comps..... mine and no prizes at all.
Do you have any suggestions?
As far as it being a nightmare, I don't agree.

 

[PaulMdj]

The OP was asking for solutions to a perceived problem that the handicap system was ruining club comps.
Do you not think that having divisions is admitting there is a problem with handicaps?
So far, there has only been 2 suggestions to help lower h/caps feel more involved in the comps..... mine and no prizes at all.
Do you have any suggestions?
As far as it being a nightmare, I don't agree.

View attachment 53549

Only 2 suggestions!! What about Clubs like ours that run Divisions and Best Gross? We are in effect giving the low handicap golfers 2 chances of winning for the same entry fee.

You solved slow play and now you’ve solved Club Comps! Wow.

 

[Slab]

The OP was asking for solutions to a perceived problem that the handicap system was ruining club comps.
Do you not think that having divisions is admitting there is a problem with handicaps?
So far, there has only been 2 suggestions to help lower h/caps feel more involved in the comps..... mine and no prizes at all.
Do you have any suggestions?
As far as it being a nightmare, I don't agree.

View attachment 53549

re bold, no it doesn't

I dunno but I’ve never assumed WHS was supposed to be a out the box solution to fit any club & any comp. I assume its supposed to provide a single framework system that any and every club has the ability to tailor towards their members, the comp and the field. Be that 25 beginner players doing a 9 holer in Skegness to a 200 player mixed field doing multiple 18 hole rounds in Singapore

The comp committee can bolt on whatever adaptations they need that day. Use the framework system and tailor it to the particular needs… or split the membership

Why does it have to be scratch. i.e removing/ignoring WHS in its entirety. That doesn’t sound like a solution, that sounds like simply disregarding it. Your solution to WHS is, don't use it

What do you not like about 2 or more nett divisions in a handicap comp? A div1 category using a spread based on entries i.e 0-9 PH or 0-5 (if entrants warrant it) surely satisfies low handicap players without excluding them or simply ditching WHS for a portion of members

I dunno but I’ve never assumed WHS was supposed to be a out the box solution to fit any club & any comp. I assume its supposed to provide a single framework system that any and every club has the ability to tailor towards their members, the comp and the field. Be that 25 beginner players doing a 9 holer in Skegness to a 200 player mixed field doing multiple 18 hole rounds in Singapore

The comp committee can bolt on whatever adaptations they need that day. Use the framework system and tailor it to the particular needs… or split the membership

 

[PaulMdj]

re bold, no it doesn't

I dunno but I’ve never assumed WHS was supposed to be a out the box solution to fit any club & any comp. I assume its supposed to provide a single framework system that any and every club has the ability to tailor towards their members, the comp and the field. Be that 25 beginner players doing a 9 holer in Skegness to a 200 player mixed field doing multiple 18 hole rounds in Singapore

The comp committee can bolt on whatever adaptations they need that day. Use the framework system and tailor it to the particular needs… or split the membership

Why does it have to be scratch. i.e removing/ignoring WHS in its entirety. That doesn’t sound like a solution, that sounds like simply disregarding it. Your solution is, don't use it

What do you not like about 2 or more nett divisions in a handicap comp? A div1 category using a spread based on entries i.e 0-9 PH or 0-5 (if entrants warrant it) surely satisfies low handicap players without excluding them or simply ditching WHS for a portion of members

I dunno but I’ve never assumed WHS was supposed to be a out the box solution to fit any club & any comp. I assume its supposed to provide a single framework system that any and every club has the ability to tailor towards their members, the comp and the field. Be that 25 beginner players doing a 9 holer in Skegness to a 200 player mixed field doing multiple 18 hole rounds in Singapore

The comp committee can bolt on whatever adaptations they need that day. Use the framework system and tailor it to the particular needs… or split the membership

Exactly, plus some Clubs used Divisions prior to WHS.

 

[bobmac]

Only 2 suggestions!! What about Clubs like ours that run Divisions and Best Gross? We are in effect giving the low handicap golfers 2 chances of winning for the same entry fee.

The low h/cps mentioned in the OP obviously disagree, either because they feel they can't compete against the higher h/cps or because their club may not have gross prizes or both.
From the article in the OP...
“You categorically can’t win handicap competitions if you have a really low handicap.''

Why does it have to be scratch. i.e removing/ignoring WHS in its entirety. That doesn’t sound like a solution, that sounds like simply disregarding it. Your solution to WHS is, don't use it

I'm not talking about the WHS, I'm talking about low h/caps up and down the land who have been complaining about the handicap system in general. But as the WHS makes it easier for people to manipulate their h/cap, from what I see and hear, it's just getting worse.

You solved slow play and now you’ve solved Club Comps! Wow.

Obviously not, as most people would rather just tell the slow people to play faster. How is that going by the way?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

For us it’s simple

1 competition- 1 entry fee , single or multiple prizes depending on the competition and break down of entries

the OP point since the introduction of WHS and potentially the increase of handicaps has made it very very hard for scratch and below players to win handicap events in their club due to it appearing that a lot of events are being won by mid to high HC golfers scoring mid 40 points plus

Now this increase in winning scores that we have seen started after whs where a lot of people appeared to have significant HC increases

There are multiple stats out there that show that it’s more likely a mid to higher HC will have more of a chance to win a handicap event

But at the end of the day most of us just enjoy the game and will enter a competition for many reasons outside trying to win

 

[Neilds]

I haven't read through all the thread, just dipped in and out but, out of interest I looked at the last S/F comp run at my club (Last Saturday)

It was won with 41 points by a 16 handicap - probably average handicap. 3rd, 4th and 6th were all 8 handicap with 39, 38 and 37 points so it is possible for single figure players to be competitive.

64th and last was 19 points by a player with a 50 handicap - but he is a new junior.

19 players in Div 1 (under 11 hcap), 32 in Div 2 (12-18) and only 13 in Div 3 (over 19) so not the same breakdown as some seen to be hinting at on this thread.

 

[Neilds]

For us it’s simple

1 competition- 1 entry fee , single or multiple prizes depending on the competition and break down of entries

the OP point since the introduction of WHS and potentially the increase of handicaps has made it very very hard for scratch and below players to win handicap events in their club due to it appearing that a lot of events are being won by mid to high HC golfers scoring mid 40 points plus

Now this increase in winning scores that we have seen started after whs where a lot of people appeared to have significant HC increases

There are multiple stats out there that show that it’s more likely a mid to higher HC will have more of a chance to win a handicap event

But at the end of the day most of us just enjoy the game and will enter a competition for many reasons outside trying to win

Because there are more of them?

 

[Deleted member 15717]

No chance. None at all. No-one with a handicap more than 3 or 4 higher than the lowest 2 or 3 players is entering a regular scratch comp (unless they are completely delusional about their chances of winning or like throwing money away). My only reason for entering scratch opens and county/regional/national championships is for a great value 36+ hole away day (or two) - I've never been under any illusion that I'm going to compete for the prizes against the properly low guys. In regular club comps, I'll always take my chances in the level playing field of the handicap comp - no way am I handicapping myself by effectively giving 4+ shots away.

The low handicappers saying they are not competitive are really asking for the handicap system to give them an unfair advantage because they see themselves as better players who deserve it (and it's what they had under the old system).

Amen.


I'm off 4, I wouldn't be entering a scratch comp at my place with guys off +1/scratch who are always knocking it round in level par or so. I'll take a punt at shooting 74/75 in the nett. Anything around nett 69/70 is going to be near the top of the board.

 

[rulefan]

Prior to Slope being introduced the h'cap system favoured low cappers. Now higher cappers should have an equal opportunity to win. However, there are usually a far higher number of entrants with higher caps to net strokeplay competitions, so the probability of a higher capper (unspecified) winning is increased.
My recollection is that in matchplay the lower capper was significantly more likely to win under CONGU. I suspect that has not changed

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Because there are more of them?

Very true

Sorry it was more about looking at each player

Someone with a handicap mid to high has a better chance of shooting the one in a million round of 45 pints etc

 

[Neilds]

Very true

Sorry it was more about looking at each player

Someone with a handicap mid to high has a better chance of shooting the one in a million round of 45 pints etc

If i had 45 pints I would be lucky to find the course never mind the ball

 

[bobmac]

Amen.


I'm off 4, I wouldn't be entering a scratch comp at my place with guys off +1/scratch who are always knocking it round in level par or so. I'll take a punt at shooting 74/75 in the nett. Anything around nett 69/70 is going to be near the top of the board.

But at least you'd have the choice.
Just out of interest, if you were playing in a s/ford, how many points would you be happy with?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Amen.


I'm off 4, I wouldn't be entering a scratch comp at my place with guys off +1/scratch who are always knocking it round in level par or so. I'll take a punt at shooting 74/75 in the nett. Anything around nett 69/70 is going to be near the top of the board.

We are lucky we really only have 1 plus handicap and he will win it every time , there are a few of us off 1 or 2 that do ok

We have brought in an Order of Merit based on gross scores which gives some something to aim for