GM Article - Handicap System Ruining Comps for Low Handicaps

[Deleted member 15717]

But at least you'd have the choice.
Just out of interest, if you were playing in a s/ford, how many points would you be happy with?

Anytime I play golf, I am happy with anything over 30 points, as it means the game was there or thereabouts.

 

[Deleted member 15717]

We have brought in an Order of Merit based on gross scores which gives some something to aim for

We introduced this a couple of years ago. I believe there is a nett and gross aspect of this, with some events being worth double points

 

[Arthur Wedge]

We introduced this a couple of years ago. I believe there is a nett and gross aspect of this, with some events being worth double points

Yep that’s exactly the same for us - there was already a net one for a salver so we introduced a gross one as well two years ago to include the same events - the big board comps have extra points etc

 

[harpo_72]

Our division prizes are broken up by number of entrants in division.
My agreement with Bob is that the lowest gross should be optional like the 2s and can easily be accommodated..

 

[wjemather]

The low h/cps mentioned in the OP obviously disagree, either because they feel they can't compete against the higher h/cps or because their club may not have gross prizes or both.
From the article in the OP...
“You categorically can’t win handicap competitions if you have a really low handicap.''

This is an outrageous lie. And very easily disproved.

I'm not talking about the WHS, I'm talking about low h/caps up and down the land who have been complaining about the handicap system in general. But as the WHS makes it easier for people to manipulate their h/cap, from what I see and hear, it's just getting worse.

This also isn't true, but it sounds like some of those complaining about having no chance shouldn't have manipulated their handicaps down to get into scratch opens.

 

[PaulMdj]

Our division prizes are broken up by number of entrants in division.
My agreement with Bob is that the lowest gross should be optional like the 2s and can easily be accommodated..

Seriously don’t want to come across as awkward, but what numbers would you expect to enter a lowest gross for it to be viable?

 

[harpo_72]

No chance. None at all. No-one with a handicap more than 3 or 4 higher than the lowest 2 or 3 players is entering a regular scratch comp (unless they are completely delusional about their chances of winning or like throwing money away). My only reason for entering scratch opens and county/regional/national championships is for a great value 36+ hole away day (or two) - I've never been under any illusion that I'm going to compete for the prizes against the properly low guys. In regular club comps, I'll always take my chances in the level playing field of the handicap comp - no way am I handicapping myself by effectively giving 4+ shots away.

The low handicappers saying they are not competitive are really asking for the handicap system to give them an unfair advantage because they see themselves as better players who deserve it (and it's what they had under the old system).

This was never the case for me when I was off 3. I knew I could break par and the difference between me and a scratch player was possibly only due to the amount of competitions they had played or entered ..
I remember playing in the US and these guys were all using a similar or the whs system and were mentioning their low handicaps .. none of them shot anywhere near those hcps which make me think it was not accurate and just a bar bragging number.
So if your saying as a 4 you don’t think you can shoot par or better then is your handicap correct and do you think you are remotely competitive with anyone?

 

[harpo_72]

Seriously don’t want to come across as awkward, but what numbers would you expect to enter a lowest gross for it to be viable?

I dunno I don’t give a monkey’s not my problem but they aren’t getting a hand out from the pot for showing up, which is happening at the moment due to whinge articles like this

 

[Slab]

I'm not talking about the WHS, I'm talking about low h/caps up and down the land who have been complaining about the handicap system in general. But as the WHS makes it easier for people to manipulate their h/cap, from what I see and hear, it's just getting worse.

If the problem is handicap manipulation then shouldn’t the club deal with that issue rather than allow it to continue (as opposed to forcing low handicappers to withdraw from entering the standard handicap comps)

Fix the problem, don't stop using it leaving a problem in place

 

[harpo_72]

If the problem is handicap manipulation then shouldn’t the club deal with that issue rather than allow it to continue (as opposed to forcing low handicappers to withdraw from entering the standard handicap comps)

Fix the problem, don't stop using it leaving a problem in place

The problem is short lived for the vanity handicaps.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Prior to Slope being introduced the h'cap system favoured low cappers. Now higher cappers should have an equal opportunity to win. However, there are usually a far higher number of entrants with higher caps to net strokeplay competitions, so the probability of a higher capper (unspecified) winning is increased.
My recollection is that in matchplay the lower capper was significantly more likely to win under CONGU. I suspect that has not changed

This exactly, If comps had 140 single figures and 10 mid to high cappers , I know which group would have the most winners.

 

[bobmac]

Our division prizes are broken up by number of entrants in division.
My agreement with Bob is that the lowest gross should be optional like the 2s and can easily be accommodated..

That's how it used to be at Bruggen GC but you still had to pay to enter the net and then pay again for the gross.
You couldn't opt out of the net

 

[PaulMdj]

I dunno I don’t give a monkey’s not my problem but they aren’t getting a hand out from the pot for showing up, which is happening at the moment due to whinge articles like this

I don’t see it as a handout because it brings a few more players in to the Comp, few more pennies for the Club and a reward for the best Golf of the day.

We aren’t talking huge sums here, depending on numbers in comp, Overall winner might get 40-50 quid, other 2 Div winners might get 25-35 quid, best Gross gets 10-15.

 

[bobmac]

We aren’t talking huge sums here, depending on numbers in comp, Overall winner might get 40-50 quid, other 2 Div winners might get 25-35 quid, best Gross gets 10-15.

Which brings us neatly back to the complaint in the article in the OP

'It’s The Only Sport That Rewards Mediocrity'​

 

[wjemather]

This was never the case for me when I was off 3. I knew I could break par and the difference between me and a scratch player was possibly only due to the amount of competitions they had played or entered ..
I remember playing in the US and these guys were all using a similar or the whs system and were mentioning their low handicaps .. none of them shot anywhere near those hcps which make me think it was not accurate and just a bar bragging number.
So if your saying as a 4 you don’t think you can shoot par or better then is your handicap correct and do you think you are remotely competitive with anyone?

The scratch player's average score is close to your best score; they would beat you 8 or 9 times out of 10.

Old UHS (CONGU) handicaps and old USGA handicaps are not directly comparable - it was known that there was a 2-4 shot difference between them. This was well illustrated on transition to WHS, when most low handicappers under UHS "lost" a few strokes (as average best reflected their true ability), and those under USGA "gained" a little (due to not having the 'bonus for excellence').

 

[wjemather]

Which brings us neatly back to the complaint in the article in the OP

'It’s The Only Sport That Rewards Mediocrity'​

Something else that isn't true. It's rewarding performance relative to demonstrated ability - the low handicapper's mediocrity relative to their ability, in scoring 35 points or fewer, isn't rewarded but the higher handicapper's relatively good 40 points is rewarded.

Also, many other sports have handicapping that does the same.

 

[Orikoru]

Something else that isn't true. It's rewarding performance relative to demonstrated ability - the low handicapper's mediocre 35 points relative to their ability isn't rewarded but the higher handicapper's relatively good 40 points is rewarded.

Also, many other sports have handicapping that does the same.

Yeah, I've been mediocre for a long time and I haven't been rewarded at all.

 

[PaulMdj]

Which brings us neatly back to the complaint in the article in the OP

'It’s The Only Sport That Rewards Mediocrity'​

Is it mediocrity if the overall winner is off 14, for example, and goes around in 8 over to win while the Best Gross is by a guy off 2 who shoots 4 over? If you’re saying the guy off 14 is being rewarded for mediocrity, then I can see why you gave up playing, becsuse that is a sad way to look at it.

 

[bobmac]

Is it mediocrity if the overall winner is off 14, for example, and goes around in 8 over to win while the Best Gross is by a guy off 2 who shoots 4 over? If you’re saying the guy off 14 is being rewarded for mediocrity, then I can see why you gave up playing, becsuse that is a sad way to look at it.

I'm not saying anything, I'm quoting the article.
And for your information, I stopped playing amateur golf because
1. I got fed up playing good golf and getting nothing back for my efforts
2. I wanted to learn how to become a better teacher so I could help people enjoy their golf more and maybe earn a few quid at the same time.

At my age and state of health, I doubt I'll be joining any golf club soon, so what clubs do with their comps won't affect me one bit.
I was just trying to answer the question in the OP

 

[LincolnShep]

I'm not saying anything, I'm quoting the article.
And for your information, I stopped playing amateur golf because
1. I got fed up playing good golf and getting nothing back for my efforts
2. I wanted to learn how to become a better teacher so I could help people enjoy their golf more and maybe earn a few quid at the same time.

At my age and state of health, I doubt I'll be joining any golf club soon, so what clubs do with their comps won't affect me one bit.
I was just trying to answer the question in the OP

What did you want back?