GM Article - Handicap System Ruining Comps for Low Handicaps

[Mandofred]

I don't need to play for money at all. Why?...the prize money really isn't that much....not worth getting excited about. I don't play harder because I paid £4 to enter a medal. I'd be fine with having a comp that costs no money to enter and just keep tabs/lists on how everybody did.

 

[GB72]

I don't need to play for money at all. Why?...the prize money really isn't that much....not worth getting excited about. I don't play harder because I paid £4 to enter a medal. I'd be fine with having a comp that costs no money to enter and just keep tabs/lists on how everybody did.

This is something I totally agree with. Happy to pay the club £1 or similar to administer the comp but no need for prize money. I honestly believe that a number of issues facing golf (cheating, handicap manipulation and even to a certain extent slow play as examples) would all be alleviated to some degree if you simply removed prize money and prize tables. Some will always act inappropriately even if there are just bragging rights or a cheap medal on the line but I think that a lot of issues would be reduced by taking away the ability to win stuff.

 

[PaulMdj]

If your club has a best gross prize in comps, (many don't), are the higher h/caps happy to know that part of their entry fee goes towards the best gross prize that they have little or no chance of winning?

Absolutely, also part of their entry fee goes towards paying for Team meals and and of season trophies.

Some will have more chance of winning the best gross than playing for the Team.

 

[bobmac]

I guess you haven’t been around clubs for a while

You're right

Competition fees in many clubs are also needed to help pay for a number of things

There would be no difference, except maybe some low guys would start playing in comps again so more entrance money

As well as many clubs having volunteers that manage the competition’s so don’t want to add complexity within comps

It's a tick in the box

There is an opt in and opt out

You can opt to pay and enter the competition or you can opt out and not pay and play in the competition

Or opt into the scratch comp and out of the net comp. You still pay your £3, it just goes into the scratch pot.

At most clubs the best gross prize is around the equivalent of 3rd in a division - so in our case around £10 - are people really that bothered that maybe 10p of their entry goes towards a small prize for someone who played the best golf that day

No, they are bothered because if they want to enter the comp, all their entry fee goes to nett prizes.
Meanwhile, first and second in the divisions win more which brings us back to the original post.....

''The only sport that rewards mediocrity''

 

[Arthur Wedge]

You're right

There would be no difference, except maybe some low guys would start playing in comps again so more entrance money

It's a tick in the box

Or opt into the scratch comp and out of the net comp. You still pay your £3, it just goes into the scratch pot.

No, they are bothered because if they want to enter the comp, all their entry fee goes to nett prizes.
Meanwhile, first and second in the divisions win more which brings us back to the original post.....

''The only sport that rewards mediocrity''

I’m guessing you haven’t played many club comps or seen the breakdown of many club golfers in recent years

Club comps are 99% handicap comps

When I enter a medal myself and all the other entries are playing in a Handicap comp

There isn’t a scratch comp and a handicap comp in your monthly medal

The winner of the divisions in both is the net winner

The “best gross” isn’t a scratch competition that people enter to try and win ( unless it’s a club championship )- all it is is a small prize for someone who scored the best gross score during the handicap medal or Stableford or board competition

For many of ours we don’t even have a small prize for the best gross - the results go into a Gross Order of Merit alongside the Net Order of Merit


The one competition we have that’s scratch is the club champs - they have a handicap alongside - it’s a single entry , prize fund spread across both and someone can win both

 

[bobmac]

I’m guessing you haven’t played many club comps or seen the breakdown of many club golfers in recent years

Club comps are 99% handicap comps

When I enter a medal myself and all the other entries are playing in a Handicap comp

There isn’t a scratch comp and a handicap comp in your monthly medal

The winner of the divisions in both is the net winner

The “best gross” isn’t a scratch competition that people enter to try and win ( unless it’s a club championship )- all it is is a small prize for someone who scored the best gross score during the handicap medal or Stableford or board competition

For many of ours we don’t even have a small prize for the best gross - the results go into a Gross Order of Merit alongside the Net Order of Merit


The one competition we have that’s scratch is the club champs - they have a handicap alongside - it’s a single entry , prize fund spread across both and someone can win both

What part of all that did you think I didn't know?
I spent all my amateur days paying into net comps.

I know that some clubs have a best gross prize, many don't.
But at the end of the day, higher h/cps shouldn't have to pay into a scratch pot they can't win but it should work both ways, lower h/cps shouldn't have to pay into the net pot they can't win unless they want to.
So a dozen low guys throw in their £3 and winner wins £30.
The other 100-150 play as normal.
Would that not placate the low guys ''up and down the land''?

 

[PaulMdj]

What part of all that did you think I didn't know?
I spent all my amateur days paying into net comps.

I know that some clubs have a best gross prize, many don't.
But at the end of the day, higher h/cps shouldn't have to pay into a scratch pot they can't win but it should work both ways, lower h/cps shouldn't have to pay into the net pot they can't win unless they want to.
So a dozen low guys throw in their £3 and winner wins £30.
The other 100-150 play as normal.
Would that not placate the low guys ''up and down the land''?

No! A Club holds a Comp every saturday or sunday, entry fee is £X.

Competition takes place,

Comps committee or whoever, gets entry fees in, takes % for “Club” costs, remainder is then paid out to winners of categories (varies from Club to Club)

Results published. Some Clubs show payout, some don’t.

And repeat! Been happening this way for decades, if people aren’t happy, don’t enter comp.

If Comps become free, all members will face a rise in annual subs, why? Because the money taken out of Comp fees to pay running costs etc will have to be raised and then everyone pays, even those who don’t play in comps.

 

[bobmac]

And repeat! Been happening this way for decades, if people aren’t happy, don’t enter comp.

If Comps become free, all members will face a rise in annual subs, why? Because the money taken out of Comp fees to pay running costs etc will have to be raised and then everyone pays, even those who don’t play in comps.

So your suggestion to the OP is if you don't like it, don't enter?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

What part of all that did you think I didn't know?
I spent all my amateur days paying into net comps.

I know that some clubs have a best gross prize, many don't.
But at the end of the day, higher h/cps shouldn't have to pay into a scratch pot they can't win but it should work both ways, lower h/cps shouldn't have to pay into the net pot they can't win unless they want to.
So a dozen low guys throw in their £3 and winner wins £30.
The other 100-150 play as normal.
Would that not placate the low guys ''up and down the land''?

There is no “scratch pot” - there is no “nett pot”


There is a competition - with that competition there is an entry fee , from the entry fee there is multiple prizes on offer or maybe one prize - when the enter the competition you are eligible for all prizes on other unless there is any age or sex categories

 

[Voyager EMH]

What part of all that did you think I didn't know?
I spent all my amateur days paying into net comps.

I know that some clubs have a best gross prize, many don't.
But at the end of the day, higher h/cps shouldn't have to pay into a scratch pot they can't win but it should work both ways, lower h/cps shouldn't have to pay into the net pot they can't win unless they want to.
So a dozen low guys throw in their £3 and winner wins £30.
The other 100-150 play as normal.
Would that not placate the low guys ''up and down the land''?

Yep, little point to this.
At our club, the two chaps with + handicaps would be the only ones. The rest would fancy their chances better in the nett.
But that kind of thing goes on anyway - eg: small friendship group of 4 or 5 chaps with 4 to 5 handicaps have a private side bet in several comps throughout the year. Keeps them interested.

 

[PaulMdj]

So your suggestion to the OP is if you don't like it, don't enter?

Which OP? The OP doesn’t mention running comps for free, this has come in as the thread has developed.

 

[bobmac]

I'm not going to repeat myself, I'm obviously wasting my time.

 

[PaulMdj]

I'm not going to repeat myself, I'm obviously wasting my time.

Or you’re missing the point, our Club, as a coincidence, runs Comps exactly as the guy in the article wants! Everybody pays the same and there’s a best gross prize.

If any member of our Club doesn’t agree with how the Captain pays out, then they have a simple choice, don’t enter the comp.

Having Comps for free would bring no recognition or reward for the lowest gross apart from 1 comp a year.

 

[Mandofred]

If Comps become free, all members will face a rise in annual subs, why? Because the money taken out of Comp fees to pay running costs etc will have to be raised and then everyone pays, even those who don’t play in comps.

I don't know how this runs.....some of the comp money is used to run the club? So if I pay £4 to enter xxx comp.....a percentage of that money will be paid out to people taking part, and ££ will be taken out with nothing to do with the comp just so the club can take a cut? I wasn't aware that a decent amount of my comp money was going to run the club. How much is this? It doesn't seem to me that it could come up to that much.....does it?

 

[PaulMdj]

I don't know how this runs.....some of the comp money is used to run the club? So if I pay £4 to enter xxx comp.....a percentage of that money will be paid out to people taking part, and ££ will be taken out with nothing to do with the comp just so the club can take a cut? I wasn't aware that a decent amount of my comp money was going to run the club. How much is this? It doesn't seem to me that it could come up to that much.....does it?

You’d have to ask your Club, but our Captain takes approx 35% of the £2.00 per person entry fee.
Going on recent Comps this raises about £80-£90 per weekend.

Out of this he pays for meals after Team matches, Trophies/engraving at end of season and towards any IT costs from IG etc.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I don't know how this runs.....some of the comp money is used to run the club? So if I pay £4 to enter xxx comp.....a percentage of that money will be paid out to people taking part, and ££ will be taken out with nothing to do with the comp just so the club can take a cut? I wasn't aware that a decent amount of my comp money was going to run the club. How much is this? It doesn't seem to me that it could come up to that much.....does it?

A percentage of the comp money for us goes towards -boards , engraving , mementos , medals , IG costs

 

[rosecott]

I don't know how this runs.....some of the comp money is used to run the club? So if I pay £4 to enter xxx comp.....a percentage of that money will be paid out to people taking part, and ££ will be taken out with nothing to do with the comp just so the club can take a cut? I wasn't aware that a decent amount of my comp money was going to run the club. How much is this? It doesn't seem to me that it could come up to that much.....does it?

See my post #309 - not all clubs are the same.

 

[bobmac]

Or you’re missing the point, our Club, as a coincidence, runs Comps exactly as the guy in the article wants! Everybody pays the same and there’s a best gross prize.

If any member of our Club doesn’t agree with how the Captain pays out, then they have a simple choice, don’t enter the comp.

Having Comps for free would bring no recognition or reward for the lowest gross apart from 1 comp a year.

I'm not missing the point.
I'll try once more .....

At one of the many clubs that don't have a best gross prize....

150 people enter a comp £3 each.
£450
12 low h/cps have little or no chance of winning anything as it's all nett so complain and get told, if you don't like it, don't enter.

OR

150 people enter a comp £3 each.

It's still £450

Most enter the net comp
12 enter the scratch comp.

12 scratch entrants x £3=£36 minus admin cut 50p each, leaves £2.50 x 12 =£30
The lowest score by the scratch entrants wins £30

The remaining 138 players x £2.50 = £345
£115 per division
£70 first prize
£30 second prize
£15 third prize
Club cut is £75

The high h/caps don't contribute to the scratch prize and the low h/cps don't contribute into the net prizes.
Therefor, the low h/cps can no longer complain about not having a chance of winning and the lowest score gets recognised and rewarded.

 

[PaulMdj]

I'm not missing the point.
I'll try once more .....

At one of the many clubs that don't have a best gross prize....

150 people enter a comp £3 each.
£450
12 low h/cps have little or no chance of winning anything as it's all nett so complain and get told, if you don't like it, don't enter.

OR

150 people enter a comp £3 each.

It's still £450

Most enter the net comp
12 enter the scratch comp.

12 scratch entrants x £3=£36 minus admin cut 50p each, leaves £2.50 x 12 =£30
The lowest score by the scratch entrants wins £30

The remaining 138 players x £2.50 = £345
£115 per division
£70 first prize
£30 second prize
£15 third prize
Club cut is £75

The high h/caps don't contribute to the scratch prize and the low h/cps don't contribute into the net prizes.
Therefor, the low h/cps can no longer complain about not having a chance of winning and the lowest score gets recognised and rewarded.

So your answer is to run 2 Comps, question is, is your scratch comp open to all handicaps or 0 and below?

Making
Div 1 1 - 10 for example
Div 2 11 - 24
Div 3 24 and above.

I would suggest that guys off 3-7 have as much chance of winning their Division Net as they do the gross.

I believe it’s easier to run 1 comp with a best gross, that way, if a low handicap has his day in the sun they have a good chance of winning their Division.

1 Comp, same payouts as your 2

 

[bobmac]

All players can choose, scratch, net or both.