General Play Question

[Alan Clifford]

Is this the Guidance? I have issue 1.7 but can't see any reference to a change from net par + 1
Have you got a link?

I am trying to find the notification that they had "misinterpreted" (their word) as to how to do the calculation and went back to the begonning of time and changed all the 9 hole differentials. They did not publish either method and it took me ages in the begiinning to realize they were not doing anything like it is specified in 5.1b of the rules of handicapping. But I guessed at net par plus one using the same course handicap for the second nine not played. At the change, I guessed they would be using the Congu advice appendix IIb.

They still use net par + 1 but, before, they used the same course handicap for the nine holes not played. Now they calculate an 18 hole course handicap and subtract the 9 hole course handicap for the nine holes played to arrive at a course handicap for the nine holes not played. It is often the same but for my game on 19/5/23, the two algorithms produce a different result. My differential on that day was 23.9.

Same 9-hole course handicap method
par 35
course rating 34
slope 123
HI = 23.4
course handicap 12
pcc 0
adjusted gross 47
net par + 1 = 48
differential = ((47 + 48) - (2 * 34) ) * 113 / 123 = 24.80

Congu algorithm
adusted gross played = 47
course handicap for 9 not played
CH = rounded((HI x (9-hole Slope / 113))) + ((2 x 9-hole CR) – (2 x 9-hole Par))
CH = ((23.4 x (123/113))) + ((2 x 34) - (2 x 35)) = 23.47

As I received 12 strokes on the 9 played, I receive (23 -12) = 11 strokes for the 9 not played.

Adjusted gross for 9 not played = 35 + 11 + 1 = 47

differential = ((47 + 47) - (2 * 34) ) * 113 / 123 = 23.88

 

[DickInShorts]

What is MLS?

Most likely score.
I understand there’s some sort of chart depending on distance of putt not holed and handicap

 

[clubchamp98]

Most likely score.
I understand there’s some sort of chart depending on distance of putt not holed and handicap

So it’s just a guess?

 

[D-S]

So it’s just a guess?

Thsee are the MLS guidelines:-

The most likely score is: The number of strokes already taken to reach a position on a hole, plus The number of strokes the player would most likely require to complete the hole from that position, plus Any penalty strokes incurred during play of the hole. Most likely scores should be determined on any hole in accordance with the following guidelines:

Position of the Ball Strokes to be Added If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole: Add one additional stroke. If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player. If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

I have bolded the bit which is a ‘judgement call’, also the distance from the hole is usually also a judgement call, so there are fairly subjective elements which are open to abuse/interpretation.

 

[jim8flog]

Our do .
we Don’t do physical cards anymore once you photo it I just put it in the bin.

Are you saying the IG app is different according to which course you play on.

When I used the app it worked the same way as the EG app it asked for the name of the attester and would not upload to the WHS until the attested had confirmed the score. There was no option to take a photo of the card.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Are you saying the IG app is different according to which course you play on.

When I used the app it worked the same way as the EG app it asked for the name of the attester and would not upload to the WHS until the attested had confirmed the score. There was no option to take a photo of the card.

The IG app is only used for your home course “IF” they are using Intelligent Golf as their ISV and you can use it to take a photo of your card in the same way as you can on the EG app

 

[jim8flog]

The IG app is only used for your home course “IF” they are using Intelligent Golf as their ISV and you can use it to take a photo of your card in the same way as you can on the EG app

I am talking about using it on my home course and we have IG as our ISV.

I use it quite a bit for cards generally during the 'covid era' and it was photo then but I did not get that option a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I am talking about using it on my home course and we have IG as our ISV.

I use it quite a bit for cards generally during the 'covid era' and it was photo then but I did not get that option a couple of weeks ago.

Sorry - For general play you don’t need to take a photo of your card

It’s a feature of IG when playing in a competition, you take a copy of your card when finalising your card

When doing General Play scores there is no need to submit any card as your score is attested by a playing partner on the app - either EG or IG

 

[jim8flog]

When doing General Play scores there is no need to submit any card as your score is attested by a playing partner on the app - either EG or IG

This was the start of the 'conversation' with clubchamp . My marker did not have the IG app

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This was the start of the 'conversation' with clubchamp . My marker did not have the IG app

Then just use the terminal to enter the score

Multiple ways for a GP to entered without the need to use a physical card

Local club ISV
EG App
Club ISV terminal

 

[clubchamp98]

Are you saying the IG app is different according to which course you play on.

When I used the app it worked the same way as the EG app it asked for the name of the attester and would not upload to the WHS until the attested had confirmed the score. There was no option to take a photo of the card.

Yes it is then.
we sign the cards after checking me and marker.
We then input our own score on the ap.
once scores are uploaded it asks for a photo upload .
Thats it no cards are returned.

 

[clubchamp98]

Thsee are the MLS guidelines:-

The most likely score is: The number of strokes already taken to reach a position on a hole, plus The number of strokes the player would most likely require to complete the hole from that position, plus Any penalty strokes incurred during play of the hole. Most likely scores should be determined on any hole in accordance with the following guidelines:

Position of the Ball Strokes to be Added If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole: Add one additional stroke. If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player. If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole: Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

I have bolded the bit which is a ‘judgement call’, also the distance from the hole is usually also a judgement call, so there are fairly subjective elements which are open to abuse/interpretation.

Isn’t a judgement call a fancy way of saying a guess.?
The rules of golf are so strict I am really surprised this is allowed.
Anyone on here ever missed a short putt?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes it is then.
we sign the cards after checking me and marker.
We then input our own score on the ap.
once scores are uploaded it asks for a photo upload .
Thats it no cards are returned.

If it’s general play why are you uploading a photo ?

 

[clubchamp98]

If it’s general play why are you uploading a photo ?

I don’t do general play cards.
all mine are comp cards .
I think we just got our wires crossed somewhere. Think it was me in post #40

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I don’t do general play cards.
all mine are comp cards .
I think we just got our wires crossed somewhere.

The whole thread is about General Play cards and using Apps to submit them

Comp cards are always via the clubs ISV and it’s a different process to any general play card being submitted and irrelevant to the thread or the post you initial replied to

 

[rulefan]

I am trying to find the notification that they had "misinterpreted" (their word) as to how to do the calculation and went back to the begonning of time and changed all the 9 hole differentials. They did not publish either method and it took me ages in the begiinning to realize they were not doing anything like it is specified in 5.1b of the rules of handicapping. But I guessed at net par plus one using the same course handicap for the second nine not played. At the change, I guessed they would be using the Congu advice appendix IIb.

They still use net par + 1 but, before, they used the same course handicap for the nine holes not played. Now they calculate an 18 hole course handicap and subtract the 9 hole course handicap for the nine holes played to arrive at a course handicap for the nine holes not played. It is often the same but for my game on 19/5/23, the two algorithms produce a different result. My differential on that day was 23.9.

Same 9-hole course handicap method
par 35
course rating 34
slope 123
HI = 23.4
course handicap 12
pcc 0
adjusted gross 47
net par + 1 = 48
differential = ((47 + 48) - (2 * 34) ) * 113 / 123 = 24.80

Congu algorithm
adusted gross played = 47
course handicap for 9 not played
CH = rounded((HI x (9-hole Slope / 113))) + ((2 x 9-hole CR) – (2 x 9-hole Par))
CH = ((23.4 x (123/113))) + ((2 x 34) - (2 x 35)) = 23.47

As I received 12 strokes on the 9 played, I receive (23 -12) = 11 strokes for the 9 not played.

Adjusted gross for 9 not played = 35 + 11 + 1 = 47

differential = ((47 + 47) - (2 * 34) ) * 113 / 123 = 23.88

I'm afraid I'm still not clear. Just what is done now "Same 9-hole course handicap method" or "Congu algorithm"?

I can't find this document "Congu advice appendix IIb" . I assume it is not the Guidance.

 

[Alan Clifford]

I'm afraid I'm still not clear. Just what is done now "Same 9-hole course handicap method" or "Congu algorithm"?

I can't find this document "Congu advice appendix IIb" . I assume it is not the Guidance.

We now use the Congu algorithm as far as I can tell doing the calculation on my scores. South Africa uses the "same course handicap" method. At least that is what they published and I rarely play 9 holes when in South Africa to really test it. Last time I looked, Europe uses the "18 from 9 played" method but slightly differently from the Congu method. USA uses the "add two 9 hole scores together" method.

Congu advice is on page 33 of the attached document.

On page 35, in the example, "As Colette received 12 strokes on the 9 holes played she receives 11 strokes on the scaled-up second nine" explains how they use the 18 hole scaled up from 9 course handicap is used.

 

[rulefan]

We now use the Congu algorithm as far as I can tell doing the calculation on my scores. South Africa uses the "same course handicap" method. At least that is what they published and I rarely play 9 holes when in South Africa to really test it. Last time I looked, Europe uses the "18 from 9 played" method but slightly differently from the Congu method. USA uses the "add two 9 hole scores together" method.

Congu advice is on page 33 of the attached document.

On page 35, in the example, "As Colette received 12 strokes on the 9 holes played she receives 11 strokes on the scaled-up second nine" explains how they use the 18 hole scaled up from 9 course handicap is used.

G5.5 Treatment of 9-Hole Scores in the Scoring Record
In GB&I, once a player has been awarded a Handicap Index, the combining of two 9-hole scores into a single 18-hole score is not applicable; each 9-hole score is scaled up to an 18- hole equivalent gross differential and included as an independent score in the player’s scoring record.

And page 35 says - Her/His Adjusted Gross Score for the 2nd nine holes is therefore calculated (as set out in Diagram 5.1b/1):

I'm still not sure what you are saying has changed.

 

[Alan Clifford]

G5.5 Treatment of 9-Hole Scores in the Scoring Record
In GB&I, once a player has been awarded a Handicap Index, the combining of two 9-hole scores into a single 18-hole score is not applicable; each 9-hole score is scaled up to an 18- hole equivalent gross differential and included as an independent score in the player’s scoring record.

And page 35 says - Her/His Adjusted Gross Score for the 2nd nine holes is therefore calculated (as set out in Diagram 5.1b/1):

I'm still not sure what you are saying has changed.

Last year, England Golf recalculated all past 9 hole differentials from the beginning of WHS time because the had "misinterpeted" how they should have been calculated. They now calculate using a different algorithm to the one they used before that event.

 

[rulefan]

Last year, England Golf recalculated all past 9 hole differentials from the beginning of WHS time because the had "misinterpeted" how they should have been calculated. They now calculate using a different algorithm to the one they used before that event.

Ah! Thanks.

I won't ask you to explain their wrong interpretation, it'll only confuse me.