Free Relief or not

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We have a 6-7ft high hedge along the left hand side of one hole. The hedge runs along the course side of a maintenance track/footpath between green and next tee. OoB is immediately along the track side of the hedge touching the hedge/fence - so the track is OoB. The hedge is enclosed both sides by a chicken wire fence to protect the hedge as it grew and to stop balls flying through the hedge and hitting folk on the track/path. There is an area of short playable rough between the hedge/fence and the fairway.

At the moment we get free relief from the hedge/fencing if it impedes our swing or stance…our drop will still always be in the short rough. There is a view that that is not correct, and that if we need relief it should be a penalty drop.

I note that I believe the reason for free relief is that the chicken wire fence is an immovable obstruction. I don’t know the rationale for free relief not being afforded - thoughts please on that.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Immediate thought is …..If the chicken fence , the immovable obstruction,were not there, would the impedance to the swing or stance be gone?
( that is the case in other instances of immovable obstruction, is it not?)

In this case, the answer is that the impedance is still there, I.e. the hedge.

So my vote is that it shouldn’t be free relief.

 

[Neilds]

Have you raised this before? Sounds familiar.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Have you raised this before? Sounds familiar.

I raised the question about what happens if a ball gets through the fence into the hedge and so physically can’t be accessed and played as potentially without the fencing it could be. I think that this is slightly different as the ball is not in the hedge - though the ruling may be the same.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Immediate thought is …..If the chicken fence , the immovable obstruction,were not there, would the impedance to the swing or stance be gone?
( that is the case in other instances of immovable obstruction, is it not?)

In this case, the answer is that the impedance is still there, I.e. the hedge.

So my vote is that it shouldn’t be free relief.

Yes as you say the hedge would remain an impedance but playing the ball might be possible. But with the fence still in place what might have been possible could be impossible?

 

[rulefan]

We have a 6-7ft high hedge along the left hand side of one hole. The hedge runs along the course side of a maintenance track/footpath between green and next tee. OoB is immediately along the track side of the hedge touching the hedge/fence - so the track is OoB. The hedge is enclosed both sides by a chicken wire fence to protect the hedge as it grew and to stop balls flying through the hedge and hitting folk on the track/path. There is an area of short playable rough between the hedge/fence and the fairway.

At the moment we get free relief from the hedge/fencing if it impedes our swing or stance…our drop will still always be in the short rough. There is a view that that is not correct, and that if we need relief it should be a penalty drop.

I note that I believe the reason for free relief is that the chicken wire fence is an immovable obstruction. I don’t know the rationale for free relief not being afforded - thoughts please on that.

What is the LR defining the OOB margin?

 

[Voyager EMH]

Staked tree - free relief.
(Once tree is mature) Take the stake away - no free relief.

Fenced hedge - free relief.
(Once hedge is mature) Take the fence away - no free relief.

The above seems to me to make a logical pair. But local rules are not always that logical.

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes as you say the hedge would remain an impedance but playing the ball might be possible. But with the fence still in place what might have been possible could be impossible?

Under the circumstances described here, the player should have an expectation of free relief from the fence.

 

[Steven Rules]

Immediate thought is …..If the chicken fence , the immovable obstruction,were not there, would the impedance to the swing or stance be gone?
( that is the case in other instances of immovable obstruction, is it not?)

In this case, the answer is that the impedance is still there, I.e. the hedge.

So my vote is that it shouldn’t be free relief.

You use the (electrical) term impedance but the Rules express it differently. The key words are "clearly unreasonable".

There is no relief when playing the ball as it lies is clearly unreasonable because of something from which the player is not allowed to take free relief (such as when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or when interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances. Rule 16.1a(3)

In the situation described in #1 and #5, it is the fence, not the hedge, that is interfering with the swing and if the fence was not there, playing the ball as it lies would not be clearly unreasonable.

My inclination is that the player is entitled to free relief.

 

[Steven Rules]

our drop will still always be in the short rough.

This is a red herring and not a consideration under the Rules. The reference point and relief area must be in the general area and not nearer the hole than the original spot of the ball. It is irrelevant whether that is on the fairway, in the rough, under a bush, or behind a tree.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What is the LR defining the OOB margin?

The OoB is delineated by white posts that are set against the fence on the track side.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Staked tree - free relief.
(Once tree is mature) Take the stake away - no free relief.

Fenced hedge - free relief.
(Once hedge is mature) Take the fence away - no free relief.

The above seems to me to make a logical pair. But local rules are not always that logical.

Except the chicken wire has been kept to stop balls going through the hedge and hitting someone on the track/path.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You use the (electrical) term impedance but the Rules express it differently. The key words are clearly unreasonable.

There is no relief when playing the ball as it lies is clearly unreasonable because of something from which the player is not allowed to take free relief (such as when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or when interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances. Rule 16.1a(3)

In the situation described in #1 and #5, it is the fence, not the hedge that is interfering with the swing and if the fence was not there, playing the ball as it lies would not be clearly unreasonable.

My inclination is that the player is entitled to free relief.

I think the issue might be that there will be occasions when a player would be able to make some sort of a stroke at the ball were the fence not there…indeed sometimes an almost full stoke might be possible. Most of the time a ball heading into the hedge at any pace would go out of bounds…the fence stops that.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is a red herring and not a consideration under the Rules. The reference point and relief area must be in the general area and not nearer the hole than the original spot of the ball. It is irrelevant whether that is on the fairway, in the rough, under a bush, or behind a tree.

Yes I know…but only added it to try and complete the picture - that the hedge is not immediately adjacent to the fairway so in most instances a ball has to be quite offline to get near to the fence

 

[Voyager EMH]

Except the chicken wire has been kept to stop balls going through the hedge and hitting someone on the track/path.

I don't see that as an "except". While the fence is there, free relief. If there comes a time when it is removed, no free relief.

 

[rulefan]

Is the defining OOB margin the track edge, either of the chicken wire fences or either of the hedge sides?
It would seem like the former 'as played' but is that what the LR says?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is the defining OOB margin the track edge, either of the chicken wire fences or either of the hedge sides?
It would seem like the former 'as played' but is that what the LR says?

I don’t know what our LR says - I will check. The hedge and its fence are in def in bounds. The posts are the other side of the hedge up against the fence. I’ve always assumed that normal rule for OoB then applies - for a ball to be out of bounds all of the ball must be beyond the course-side edge of the white posts or beyond the line defined by the course-side edge.

 

[Oldbutwise]

The fence seems to be a permanent fixture to protect persons on the track. Your Committee has defined it as an immovable obstruction so I can't see an argument against free relief. If they had defined it as an integral object then that would be different but they haven't!

 

[Swinglowandslow]

You use the (electrical) term impedance but the Rules express it differently. The key words are "clearly unreasonable".

There is no relief when playing the ball as it lies is clearly unreasonable because of something from which the player is not allowed to take free relief (such as when a player is unable to make a stroke because of where the ball lies in a bush), or when interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances. Rule 16.1a(3)

In the situation described in #1 and #5, it is the fence, not the hedge, that is interfering with the swing and if the fence was not there, playing the ball as it lies would not be clearly unreasonable.

My inclination is that the player is entitled to free relief.

I don’t use the word in the electrical sense but in meaning to partially or wholly prevent or obstruct.
I envisaged, from Hugh’s words, that the chicken wire fence was almost a cover or skin of the side of the hedge,such that a swing impeded by the fence would also be close enough to the hedge to be impeded by the hedge. I.e chicken wire just a couple of inches or so from the hedge.
I O W
Waving a magic wand to make the chicken wire disappear wouldn’t prevent the golf club hitting the hedge when swinging a stroke.
In the spirit of the game, whether fence is there or not, the golfer couldn’t make a meaningful swing.
However, if the fence is further away from the hedge, it may be far enough away to make a difference. If that’s the case, then…free relief.- Thank you, Fence

 

[rulefan]

I don’t use the word in the electrical sense but in meaning to partially or wholly prevent or obstruct.
I envisaged, from Hugh’s words, that the chicken wire fence was almost a cover or skin of the side of the hedge,such that a swing impeded by the fence would also be close enough to the hedge to be impeded by the hedge. I.e chicken wire just a couple of inches or so from the hedge.
I O W
Waving a magic wand to make the chicken wire disappear wouldn’t prevent the golf club hitting the hedge when swinging a stroke.
In the spirit of the game, whether fence is there or not, the golfer couldn’t make a meaningful swing.
However, if the fence is further away from the hedge, it may be far enough away to make a difference. If that’s the case, then…free relief.- Thank you, Fence

The course-side fence is the immediate problem. There is interference from the fence.
The Rule simply says:
When Relief is Allowed
An abnormal course condition physically interferes with the player's intended stance or area of intended swing.
EOS

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