Fellow competitor picks incompletely holed ball from the hole?

[delc]

People on here seem to be very judgemental! Occasionally you just have to apply common sense. I could have made the player go through the rigmarole of trying to replace the ball and hopefully jiggling the flag to allow it to drop fully into the hole, but the end result would have been the same, unless he somehow managed to pull the ball out of the hole in the process. If the player himself rather than the FC had incorrectly picked the ball out of the hole, I would have applied a one-stroke penalty and required him to replace the ball.

 

[palindromicbob]

People on here seem to be very judgemental! Occasionally you just have to apply common sense. I could have made the player go through the rigmarole of trying to replace the ball and hopefully jiggling the flag to allow it to drop fully into the hole, but the end result would have been the same, unless he somehow managed to pull the ball out of the hole in the process. If the player himself rather than the FC had incorrectly picked the ball out of the hole, I would have applied a one-stroke penalty and required him to replace the ball.

You of all people should know that this section of the forum gets very pedantic Delc. It's actually part of the fun of discussing the rules. We all know there are situations in the real world where anal application of the rules would likely result in a completely different kind of anal application.

The result of what you did at the time is not what I would condemn either. I would actually agree with you that the seemingly fair thing in that situation would be to count the ball as holed just as you did. Fact is though that within the rules as they stand at this moment this would be wrong.

The thing that I think most have a problem with is your tenacious attempts to rewrite the rule book in the way you'd like it to be rather than to apply it as it is. Please don't change though. Some of the discussions generated are the most entertaining things on this forum.

 

[Colin L]

People on here seem to be very judgemental! Occasionally you just have to apply common sense. I could have made the player go through the rigmarole of trying to replace the ball and hopefully jiggling the flag to allow it to drop fully into the hole, but the end result would have been the same, unless he somehow managed to pull the ball out of the hole in the process. If the player himself rather than the FC had incorrectly picked the ball out of the hole, I would have applied a one-stroke penalty and required him to replace the ball.

Sadly, you obviously have not quite grasped what I was trying to help you understand when I reminded you that the Definition of a marker explicitly states that he is not a referee. You cannot make another player do anything. You could not have applied a one-stroke penalty. As a marker or fellow competitor you have no right to tell him what to do. You can advise him of what you think the Rules require him to do, but it is entirely down to the player to decide. As such, the consequences of the player's actions are entirely his own responsibility. He unfortunately took the advice of a well-meaning FC who by "applying common sense" and exercising an authority he does not have, misled him into a DQ.

Not your best moment, I'd say. Especially in the context of your express wish that the player was not "potentially penalised or disqualified due to the fellow competitor's ignorance of the rules." The irony in there is exquisite.

 

[delc]

Sadly, you obviously have not quite grasped what I was trying to help you understand when I reminded you that the Definition of a marker explicitly states that he is not a referee. You cannot make another player do anything. You could not have applied a one-stroke penalty. As a marker or fellow competitor you have no right to tell him what to do. You can advise him of what you think the Rules require him to do, but it is entirely down to the player to decide. As such, the consequences of the player's actions are entirely his own responsibility. He unfortunately took the advice of a well-meaning FC who by "applying common sense" and exercising an authority he does not have, misled him into a DQ.

Not your best moment, I'd say. Especially in the context of your express wish that the player was not "potentially penalised or disqualified due to the fellow competitor's ignorance of the rules." The irony in there is exquisite.

As I understand it, it is the marker's duty to correctly record the player's scores at each hole, including any applicable penalties. My player was not DQ'd because the incident was not reported to the committee, so what's the problem?

 

[Colin L]

As I understand it, it is the marker's duty to correctly record the player's scores at each hole, including any applicable penalties. My player was not DQ'd because the incident was not reported to the committee, so what's the problem?

You are quite right: that is the marker's duty. That and no more. The problem is you assume an authority to tell a player what to do and to impose penalties. A marker does not have that authority. In this instance, by the way , you did not record the player's score correctly since he failed to hole out and you should have recorded a No Return.

 

[palindromicbob]

As I understand it, it is the marker's duty to correctly record the player's scores at each hole, including any applicable penalties. My player was not DQ'd because the incident was not reported to the committee, so what's the problem?

A "marker" is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor's score in stroke play. He may be a fellow-competitor. He is not a referee.

Spirit of the Game.
Golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of golf.

Rule 6-6 a.
Recording Scores
After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

Decision 1-3/6

Q) In stroke play, B failed to hole out at a hole. A few holes later he realised he had erred. A, B's marker and fellow-competitor, was aware both that B had infringed the Rules and that B knew this, but nevertheless he signed B's card. B was disqualified under Rule 3-2 (Failure to Hole Out). Should A, who knowingly overlooked the breach, be penalised?

A)A should have been disqualified for a breach of Rule 1-3.


Decision 6-6a/5

Q)In stroke play, a competitor returned a wrong score because his score card did not include a penalty he had incurred. The competitor was unaware that he had incurred the penalty. The competitor's marker (a fellow-competitor) was aware of the penalty but nevertheless signed the card. The facts were discovered before the result of the competition was officially announced.
The competitor is, of course, disqualified (Rule 6-6d). Is the marker also subject to disqualification?

A) Yes. The Committee should disqualify the marker under Rule 33-7.


BTW I found your rule book.

 

[delc]

Amazingly, this happened to me when playing at Sherfield Oaks yesterday (see photo). This was the result of a putt from just off the green at the 4th hole. It was quite a breezy, gusty day and the wind was pushing the flag stick to one side. Just after I took this photo the wind slackened for a second or two and the ball dropped into the hole. The flagsticks at this course are about as slim as they get. Of course, this problem would be solved if the hole was made slightly bigger!

 

[Foxholer]

If equity means fairness (which is one of the dictionary definitions), I didn't want the player to be potentially penalised or disqualified due to the fellow competitor's ignorance of the rules.

Then make sure they are applied correctly rather than simply waived!

As it is, and assuming that the comp is closed, I believe your FC probably 'gets away with it' because he (presumably) didn't know the correct Rule. But I'm pretty certain that, because you knew the Rule at the time, this is a case where You should be DQ-ed even after the comp is closed! And that strikes me as an 'equitable' result! You should certainly notify the Competition Committee of what happened - to not do so would undermine your standing as a 'proper' golfer imo. Please report back what their decision is/was.

The 'important' point that comes out of this thread is that 'equity' isn't something that an individual Player can decide - it has to be resolved by others, and isn't an absolute synonym for 'fair'.

 

[Colin L]

Amazingly, this happened to me when playing at Sherfield Oaks yesterday (see photo). This was the result of a putt from just off the green at the 4th hole. It was quite a breezy, gusty day and the wind was pushing the flag stick to one side. Just after I took this photo the wind slackened for a second or two and the ball dropped into the hole. The flagsticks at this course are about as slim as they get. Of course, this problem would be solved if the hole was made slightly bigger!

Thank you for sharing this amazingly rare event, Del - my flabber is well and truly gasted. I wish it had happened to me. But if it had, knowing my luck, I wouldn't have had a camera to hand to take photographic evidence of it

 

[duncan mackie]

Thank you for sharing this amazingly rare event, Del - my flabber is well and truly gasted. I wish it had happened to me. But if it had, knowing my luck, I wouldn't have had a camera to hand to take photographic evidence of it

strangely most of us would probably wish we were there to pick up the ball while the player was walking back to his bag (to get a camera) ........or would we

 

[delc]

Thank you for sharing this amazingly rare event, Del - my flabber is well and truly gasted. I wish it had happened to me. But if it had, knowing my luck, I wouldn't have had a camera to hand to take photographic evidence of it

I happened to have my iPhone in my pocket, which has a built in camera.

 

[Foxholer]

Thank you for sharing this amazingly rare event, Del - my flabber is well and truly gasted. I wish it had happened to me. But if it had, knowing my luck, I wouldn't have had a camera to hand to take photographic evidence of it

Colin. I detect a touch of cynicism!

strangely most of us would probably wish we were there to pick up the ball while the player was walking back to his bag (to get a camera) ........or would we

And Duncan, I detect an underlying 'nasty evil nature' that I wasn't previously aware of! Outwith the heritage your name implies of course!

:rofl:

 

[delc]

Then make sure they are applied correctly rather than simply waived!

As it is, and assuming that the comp is closed, I believe your FC probably 'gets away with it' because he (presumably) didn't know the correct Rule. But I'm pretty certain that, because you knew the Rule at the time, this is a case where You should be DQ-ed even after the comp is closed! And that strikes me as an 'equitable' result! You should certainly notify the Competition Committee of what happened - to not do so would undermine your standing as a 'proper' golfer imo. Please report back what their decision is/was.

The 'important' point that comes out of this thread is that 'equity' isn't something that an individual Player can decide - it has to be resolved by others, and isn't an absolute synonym for 'fair'.

To be fair, I suspect that about 90% of golfers would think that a ball resting between the lip and the flagstick has been holed, even though it is not completely below ground. And according to your argument, ignorance of the rules is a defence! :mmm:

 

[Colin L]

I happened to have my iPhone in my pocket, which has a built in camera.

Sorry Del, you don't do irony too well.

 

[chrisd]

To be fair, I suspect that about 90% of golfers would think that a ball resting between the lip and the flagstick has been holed, even though it is not completely below ground. And according to your argument, ignorance of the rules is a defence! :mmm:

Errrrrr .......... Didn't you say earlier that you knew, and told your FC, the rule, so, if that's the case Del you can't even claim ignorance as your excuse. In that case you should report your own action to the committee and be DQ'd from the comp.

Also, there would be nothing gained by enlarging the hole that wouldn't easier handled by knowing how to proceed and applying the rules of golf!

 

[Foxholer]

To be fair, I suspect that about 90% of golfers would think that a ball resting between the lip and the flagstick has been holed, even though it is not completely below ground. And according to your argument, ignorance of the rules is a defence! :mmm:

I should think 90% would question it! And 50% of those would find out for definite. 99% of those that did it - unless someone had convinced them that they needn't bother!

Not a defence - and there is a Penalty (DQ, so pretty severe in this cdase) - if the issue is raised before comp closed. But an acknowledged reason, with no consequent Penalty, after it has closed.

Have you reported it to the Comp Committee yet? Your knowledge of the Rule at the time almost certainly means you should be DQ-ed even after the closure - as the Decision Bob posted demonstrate!

 

[delc]

Errrrrr .......... Didn't you say earlier that you knew, and told your FC, the rule, so, if that's the case Del you can't even claim ignorance as your excuse. In that case you should report your own action to the committee and be DQ'd from the comp.

I had a rubbish score anyway!

Also, there would be nothing gained by enlarging the hole that wouldn't easier handled by knowing how to proceed and applying the rules of golf!

There would be some other advantages, including speeding up play, especially if rule 17-3c was recinded so that you could putt leaving the flagstick in the hole, without any need to have it attended.

 

[Foxholer]

I had a rubbish score anyway!

So?

You either follow The Rules or you don't!

If you are going to decide which Rules you are going to follow in a comp - while pointing them out to others - then, imo, there's no place for you in this game!

 

[delc]

So?

You either follow The Rules or you don't!

If you are going to decide which Rules you are going to follow in a comp - while pointing them out to others - then, imo, there's no place for you in this game!

Why? Just because I gave a FC the benefit of the doubt in a situation where I wasn't totally sure of the rules? If I had have been sure, I wouldn't have asked the original question in this thread!

 

[Foxholer]

Why? Just because I gave a FC the benefit of the doubt in a situation where I wasn't totally sure of the rules? If I had have been sure, I wouldn't have asked the original question in this thread!

NO! Your OP was about whether 'another FC' - the guy who picked the ball out of the hole - should be penalised!

The fact that it turns out that you (should have) caused a couple of DQs is what I am talking about.

If you are it's all of your own making!