F/C stood on ball

[evahakool]

Played in a stroke play comp. at the weekend in a 3 ball . Tee shoot went into light rough on a par 4, not a great lie so was going to lay up with p/w. then one of my f/c stood on my ball, as f/c and myself were unsure of the ruling we called over the other f/c. He advised that in this situation it would be ok to take a free drop.

Took the drop as close as possible and got a good lie,so proceeded to hit a rescue club just short of the green,gaining a good advantage from this .

As I finished third on count back and getting a prize I've had a nagging feeling this ruling was perhaps incorrect.

So

A/ was this a free drop ?

B/ Should I have placed the ball instead of dropping ?

 

[guest100718]

Played in a stroke play comp. at the weekend in a 3 ball . Tee shoot went into light rough on a par 4, not a great lie so was going to lay up with p/w. then one of my f/c stood on my ball, as f/c and myself were unsure of the ruling we called over the other f/c. He advised that in this situation it would be ok to take a free drop.

Took the drop as close as possible and got a good lie,so proceeded to hit a rescue club just short of the green,gaining a good advantage from this .

As I finished third on count back and getting a prize I've had a nagging feeling this ruling was perhaps incorrect.

So

A/ was this a free drop ?

B/ Should I have placed the ball instead of dropping ?

place the ball in original position, if thats not known then I think you should have dropped it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm assuming your F/C stood on it accidently. What if he had stood on it while you were all searching for your ball. By standing on it he would almost certainly made your lie quite a bit worse (in the rough) pressing it deeper down into the rough - but you wouldn't have got any relief from that - it would have been tough I'm guessing.

 

[Foxholer]

No Penalty for the FC standing on the ball

'Ball must be replaced' is the wording of the Rule (18.4).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

No Penalty for the FC standing on the ball

'Ball must be replaced' is the wording of the Rule (18.3).

Lucky the ball had been found - if stood on in the act of searching for it - tough?

 

[Foxholer]

Lucky the ball had been found - if stood on in the act of searching for it - tough?

Just to correct my dodgy fingers (bad day) it's 18.4!

Not quite sure what you mean, but different if it's player's ball. If moved, 18.2 applies and it's a 1 shot penalty. Ball must be replaced - or placed as close as poss with the most similar lie.

 

[woody69]

18-4. By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie Or Equipment In Stroke Play

If a Fellow-Competitor, his Caddie or his Equipment Move-Or-Moved the player’s ball, touches it or causes it to Move-Or-Moved, there is no penalty. If the ball is Move-Or-Moved, it must be replaced.

 

[evahakool]

So if I placed instead of dropping should that have been a penalty and therefore signed for a wrong score which would lead to a d/q.

 

[evahakool]

Sorry meant to say dropped instead of placing.

 

[Foxholer]

I fear so!

Another reason to become familiar with and apply Rule 3-3 Doubt as to Procedure (playing 2 balls)!. There's a bit of procedural 'faff' involved. Doesn't guarantee anything, but reduces likelihood of such instances.

And also pays to check any rulings before signing the card. Again, no guarantees.

And another argument for having a Rule Book in the bag - or available.

 

[backwoodsman]

So if I placed instead of dropping should that have been a penalty and therefore signed for a wrong score which would lead to a d/q.

Afraid so - a two shot penalty and therefore you recorded a lower score than you should have. Decision 20-6/1 explains

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

18-4. By Fellow-Competitor, Caddie Or Equipment In Stroke Play

If a Fellow-Competitor, his Caddie or his Equipment Move-Or-Moved the player’s ball, touches it or causes it to Move-Or-Moved, there is no penalty. If the ball is Move-Or-Moved, it must be replaced.

And so if looking for my F/Cs ball in the deep rough I accidently stand on it and in doing so press it firmly and deeper into the rough - but it doesn't otrehrwise move - then that's tough on my F/C. All I can do is apologise and he has to get on with digging his ball out?

 

[Foxholer]

And so if looking for my F/Cs ball in the deep rough I accidently stand on it and in doing so press it firmly and deeper into the rough - but it doesn't otrehrwise move - then that's tough on my F/C. All I can do is apologise and he has to get on with digging his ball out?

Explain how the ball hasn't moved!

 

[backwoodsman]

And so if looking for my F/Cs ball in the deep rough I accidently stand on it and in doing so press it firmly and deeper into the rough - but it doesn't otrehrwise move - then that's tough on my F/C. All I can do is apologise and he has to get on with digging his ball out?

If you stand on it and press it deeper you have by definition moved it. So it can be replaced - ie in practice raised back up to its original position

 

[rulefan]

If you stand on it and press it deeper you have by definition moved it. So it can be replaced - ie in practice raised back up to its original position

So it must be replaced

 

[rulefan]

And so if looking for my F/Cs ball in the deep rough I accidently stand on it and in doing so press it firmly and deeper into the rough - but it doesn't otrehrwise move - then that's tough on my F/C. All I can do is apologise and he has to get on with digging his ball out?

Unless the ball was on a concrete path it will move downwards

[h=2]18/1[/h][h=4]Ball Moves Vertically Downwards[/h]Q.A ball lying in long grass slips vertically downwards. Or a ball is accidentally stepped on and pressed down, say a quarter of an inch, in the grass or into the ground. In each case, has the ball moved?
A.Yes, unless the ball returns to its original position. The direction of movement is immaterial.


[h=4]20-3b. Lie of Ball to be Placed or Replaced Altered[/h]If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered:
(i) except in a hazard, the ball must be placed in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard.

 

[duncan mackie]

whilst I agree with Rulefan in what's posted, it's important to recognise that you have to know the original lie for the second point to be valid.

the note to 20-3b tells us

Note: If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered and it is impossible to determine the spot where the ball is to be placed or replaced, Rule 20-3b applies if the original lie is known, and Rule 20-3c applies if the original lie is not known.

put simply, if you know where in 3d you replace it, if you don't you drop.

I would struggle to penalise a player who dropped on the basis that they weren't sure exactly where, or how, the ball lay. Put another way it's the safer option!

 

[evahakool]

I was certain where the ball was as I was standing right next to my f/c as he stood on the ball,so I could have placed in exactly the same spot. As the other f/c seemed sure of the ruling I followed his advice and dropped.

So it seems I should have placed instead of dropping,therefore should have taken a penalty and so i signed for a wrong score and should have been d/q.

What would the advice be about informing the committee of this situation .

 

[Foxholer]

Pretty sure that now that the comp has closed, the results stand as is.

However, if it really troubles you, you could well consider returning your 'prize' or passing it to the guy you pipped on count-back.

@Duncan. Would you really not penalise the breach? I know it's a harsh penalty, especially given that the place to place it wasn't absolutely certain and a drop is pretty 'fair' - just wrong! - but is there any alternative when the Rules say MUST be placed?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My point is as posed by @Duncan - neither I nor my F/C know where the ball is before I stand on it. We can assume I've moved it (downwards) but how much we really don't know. Not sure I see how my F/C can somehow pick his ball up and replace it as much of the time he will replace the ball on top of grass in which it was probably buried to an extent. Seems to be too much uncertainty around original position and too much potential advantage to be gained from a replace in this instance.

I mention this as on Sunday I stood on my own ball deep in the long rough to the side of our first (after tee shot). It was quite obvious to me that by my action I must had pressed the ball deeper into the undergrowth - but I felt I couldn't claim any relief from my action as I didn't know original exact position of my ball as I didn;t sdee it before I stood on it, and I didn't know for certain that I'd pressed it deeper down into the clag. So mega hack out. Dropped a shot