European Union

[woody69]

That is an interesting point.

I am unable to see where there is anything like unanimity amongst economists, serious or otherwise, perhaps you could quote your source(s).

Personally I lean towards remaining within, albeit on a re-negotiated basis but, rather like the Scotland debate, there does appear to be a shortage of non-partisan information available to the public to assist the decision making process.

That shortage of information should not, however, be an excuse for not holding a referendum which I feel should be on the basis of the question not being asked again for at least 30 years regardless of the outcome. This should then enable us to "get on with it" afterwards.

You want a public referendum to vote whether the UK should stay within the EU? The problem with that is the vast majority of people in the UK either don't really care, or don't know. We elect a government every 5 years or so to make these decisions on our behalf. If we don't like it, we have the opportunity to vote them out. I'm not sure a referendum put to the public is the best idea based simply on the fact, the majority of people simply don't understand or know the full facts as to what EU membership provides and you get lots of people like our friend in the OP who focus purely on a single issue without looking at the wider perspective.

 

[Hacker Khan]

That is an interesting point.

I am unable to see where there is anything like unanimity amongst economists, serious or otherwise, perhaps you could quote your source(s).

Personally I lean towards remaining within, albeit on a re-negotiated basis but, rather like the Scotland debate, there does appear to be a shortage of non-partisan information available to the public to assist the decision making process.

That shortage of information should not, however, be an excuse for not holding a referendum which I feel should be on the basis of the question not being asked again for at least 30 years regardless of the outcome. This should then enable us to "get on with it" afterwards.

It was a discussion on 5 Live I was listening too and I believe it was their economics editor that said it, but not 100% sure. He was talking about the views put forwards by the major banks and other economic institutions I think, but again not 100% definite it was just the banks/financial institutions.

But I appreciate that we all know you can get statistics to prove anything, and you can always find someone to agree with your opinion, no matter how paranoid or crazy it may be. I mean, look at half the threads on this board

 

[Deleted member 18645]

If these people were true asylum seekers, they would claim asylum at the first safe country they reached. But they all travel through numerous countries to try to get to the UK because we're the only idiots who give them free housing and benefits. And all the other European countries know it and help abuse it.

 

[williamalex1]

If these people were true asylum seekers, they would claim asylum at the first safe country they reached. But they all travel through numerous countries to try to get to the UK because we're the only idiots who give them free housing and benefits. And all the other European countries know it and help abuse it.

That's the correct answer to my post 6.:thup:

 

[woody69]

If these people were true asylum seekers, they would claim asylum at the first safe country they reached. But they all travel through numerous countries to try to get to the UK because we're the only idiots who give them free housing and benefits. And all the other European countries know it and help abuse it.

That's the correct answer to my post 6.:thup:

 

[Foxholer]

...
I am unable to see where there is anything like unanimity amongst economists, serious or otherwise, perhaps you could quote your source(s).

It is pretty much unheard of to ever get 'unanimity' from a bunch of economists! By their nature, they are always looking for alternatives, benefits and 'downsides' of any situation/strategy!

But perhaps a list of any that say 'EU membership is bad for Britain' would be simpler - and probably a lot shorter. The Daily Mail might be able to supply one.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Seems to me that so much of the discussion and disquiet around the EU hinges around the core EU principle of 'free movement of labour'. So many other issues relating to immigration such as employment, welfare, NHS, crime, schooling etc are all consequences of that basic principle. The problem for Eurosceptics is as the Times columnist Philip Collins wrote today - the EU will simply not enter any negotiation around that principle. No matter what Cameron and May might hint at or imply - change to that principle is just not going to happen - end of!

 

[Foxholer]

Seems to me that so much of the discussion and disquiet around the EU hinges around the core EU principle of 'free movement of labour'. So many other issues relating to immigration such as employment, welfare, NHS, crime, schooling etc are all consequences of that basic principle. The problem for Eurosceptics is as the Times columnist Philip Collins wrote today - the EU will simply not enter any negotiation around that principle. No matter what Cameron and May might hint at or imply - change to that principle is just not going to happen - end of!

And that's a pretty fundamental Tory principle too!

But there'll be sufficient compromises made on minor matters for them to say 'We had a victory'!

And while they can stir the hearts of their troops with their ongoing plan to rescind the Human Rights Act (a, if not the, major purpose of which was to actually deal with HR cases in UK rather than having them go to ECHR), they won't actually change anything about European Court of Human Rights unless they withdraw from the Council of Europe, something they are extremely unlikely to do, as membership of CofEurope is required for membership of EU! And acceptance of ECHR rulings as the final say on HR matters is a requirement of membership of Council of Europe!

It is, of course, politically convenient that a very small number of cases can allow such stirring of the Tory flock to be generated! But that view only demonstrates my cynicism about politics!

 

[SocketRocket]

No, it is knee jerk anti-Europe, flag waving (check your avatar), mouth drooling jingoism.

But lets not forget it is also tinged with a large measure of hypocrisy.

Its owner is a British born and educated non dom who pays little or no UK tax as a result. A hypocrite beyond compare. At least he has not declared his admiration for Hitler and Mosley (although he may have it) like his great-grandfather did, but the political views appear not to have evolved very much regardless.

As a professional person of letters I find your method of debate unbelievable and not worthy of reply, other than to explain that my Avatar has the flag of my Nation which I am proud to be a member of and fail to see how that is related to the discussion. I also note that your Avatar has a set of cufflinks with the Italian Flag (I think) Should I also draw some link between your mode of discussion and birth rite? Of course not, I wouldn't be so crass!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Seems to me that so much of the discussion and disquiet around the EU hinges around the core EU principle of 'free movement of labour'. So many other issues relating to immigration such as employment, welfare, NHS, crime, schooling etc are all consequences of that basic principle. The problem for Eurosceptics is as the Times columnist Philip Collins wrote today - the EU will simply not enter any negotiation around that principle. No matter what Cameron and May might hint at or imply - change to that principle is just not going to happen - end of!

I think Mr Collins may be surprised but that is hardly surprising considering his political background.

There does appear to be a growing groundswell amongst other Northern European members of the EU that could lead to changes in the principle of 'free movement of labour'.

In addition it has already become clear that many of the other issues, such as welfare, access to health services and law & order are not inextricably linked to this freedom.

 

[Foxholer]

...I also note that your Avatar has a set of cufflinks with the Italian Flag (I think) ...

Best tink again then boyo! (Oi tink) :rofl:

 

[woody69]

As a professional person of letters I find your method of debate unbelievable and not worthy of reply, other than to explain that my Avatar has the flag of my Nation which I am proud to be a member of and fail to see how that is related to the discussion. I also note that your Avatar has a set of cufflinks with the Italian Flag (I think) Should I also draw some link between your mode of discussion and birth rite? Of course not, I wouldn't be so crass!

I always thought it was the Irish flag, but I am slightly colour blind and struggle to differentiate between reds and oranges! Not that this has anything to do with the topic. Carry on.

 

[SocketRocket]

I always thought it was the Irish flag, but I am slightly colour blind and struggle to differentiate between reds and oranges! Not that this has anything to do with the topic. Carry on.

It may well be Irish but that does not detract from the point.

 

[SocketRocket]

Best tink again then boyo! (Oi tink) :rofl:

Stupid boy. Keep up.

The two are similar and the avatar is not that clear but you seem to miss the point anyhow.

 

[Foxholer]

Stupid boy...

:rofl:

 

[Slime]

Hurrah someone who actually took the time to read and understand my post.

How do these immigrant get though ALL of EUROPE without anyone stopping them? They are NOT entitled to free movement within the EU so why aren't they stopped as they should be BEFORE THEY GET ANYWHERE NEAR US???????? WTF is it our problem???? It is Europes problem. That's where they enter EUROPE. Can you not see this????? We are being pooped (ok mods???) on by our so call Europeans partners. If we pulled out set out own laws we could stop them. GO NIGE AND UKIP !!!!!! The Tories are starting torealise that UKIP are listening to the Britsh people and getting fast growing support. (See announcement on Tax) Labour can all **** off after watching that stupid woman on last nights question time. Total idiots!

I think the above has some merit.

If these people were true asylum seekers, they would claim asylum at the first safe country they reached. But they all travel through numerous countries to try to get to the UK because we're the only idiots who give them free housing and benefits. And all the other European countries know it and help abuse it.

Unfortunately, I think you are bang on.


Slime.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

As a professional person of letters I find your method of debate unbelievable and not worthy of reply, other than to explain that my Avatar has the flag of my Nation which I am proud to be a member of and fail to see how that is related to the discussion. I also note that your Avatar has a set of cufflinks with the Italian Flag (I think) Should I also draw some link between your mode of discussion and birth rite? Of course not, I wouldn't be so crass!

A professional person of letters ? What does that mean

And its an Irish Flag and quite clearly an Irish Flag

 

[Hobbit]

Back to the EU and the Illegal immigrants waiting to cross the channel. These people should be claiming political asylum in the first country they pass through, how can they wait to use this card until they arrive in the UK? I would suggest that anyone who arrives in the Uk to claim asylum who has passed through another country should be deported to that country without delay.

That must surely be something for the UK Government to take up with the French Government!

Good idea, and it is/was a European Regulation - namely the Dublin Regulation, that an illegal immigrant be returned to the country they last passed through. I think this was contested by the European Court of Human Rights, at the behest of an illegal immigrant.

I think the regulation still exists but I think the immigrant won their case... (Belgium and.... Greece(?) got done over and fined I think).

 

[Doon frae Troon]

A professional person of letters ? What does that mean

He's a postie:smirk:

 

[Hacker Khan]

He's a postie:smirk: