England v India Series

[Deleted member 18588]

I agree, the subcontinent pitches have always had more bite for the spinners and is heart wrenching for the seamers. But over the past couple of years, India has started developing some good seamers - Shami and Bhuveneshwar Kumar have done alright. Watching Shami break Cooks offstump off an absolute with an absolute beauty

Listening to TMS this morning, 'there is something reassuring to wake up on a winter morning and hear about a English collapse..'

And yet in England in 2014 Shami took 5 for 350+ in three Tests. In those same three matches Anderson took 16 wickets for pretty much the same.

As I say it is only exceptional sides that do not rely upon favourable home conditions.

 

[Tongo]

Can't argue with this. Good points well made

Said when the squad was announced that the spinners were the poor choices and we should have taken Leach and Rayner

Ansari always injured and guess what he is again

Batty just not threatening enough and a dead duck on tour

And whilst the batsmen have struggled the bowlers haven't taken the chances as well. Leach is doing well on the Lions tour so hopefully should see him involved during the summer

India is always a tough place to tour and it's no shame to lose but would like to see a bit of fight.

Even with Leach England would still have lost comfortably. They simply do not have the resources to match India. It isnt about fight, its about just not being good enough. A bit like when playing the Aussies in their pomp. Sometimes you've just got to hold your hands up and admit you arent good enough.

Not that the media will take any of that into account. They'll just be baying for blood.

 

[Tongo]

And yet in England in 2014 Shami took 5 for 350+ in three Tests. In those same three matches Anderson took 16 wickets for pretty much the same.

As I say it is only exceptional sides that do not rely upon favourable home conditions.

Or maybe Shami's a better bowler than he was 2 years ago.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Is it any surprise England have struggled in spin friendly conditions when spin bowling is so marginalised in the county championship?

Plus the selectors chose to ignore Jack Leach despite him taking 68 wickets last summer.

Certainly the selection of Batty and Ansari was strange but in fairness what are the options?

Leach may have been a possible but that would also have been a gamble as, so far, he has had only one good season. Personally I would have given him a chance but in view of his limited past record we would all have been hoping that he was more Hameed than Duckett.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Or maybe Shami's a better bowler than he was 2 years ago.

We will never know. Obviously it would be strange if, at this stage of his career, he hadn't improved but the only way of comparing will be if he again tours England.

 

[Tongo]

We will never know. Obviously it would be strange if, at this stage of his career, he hadn't improved but the only way of comparing will be if he again tours England.

He's only played 22 tests though and had only made his debut the November before that England series you referred to.

I listened to a lot of TMS on the test at Mohali and he consistently troubled the England batsmen in a way that the England bowlers didnt.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Even with Leach England would still have lost comfortably. They simply do not have the resources to match India. It isnt about fight, its about just not being good enough. A bit like when playing the Aussies in their pomp. Sometimes you've just got to hold your hands up and admit you arent good enough.

Not that the media will take any of that into account. They'll just be baying for blood.

You could swap the Aussies for that legendary West Indian side of the 70's and early 80's who played home and away and were largely unstoppable on any wicket. I take your point about Australia but if you look at their record in India it's not that good and 2004-5 was their last win there

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Even with Leach England would still have lost comfortably. They simply do not have the resources to match India. It isnt about fight, its about just not being good enough. A bit like when playing the Aussies in their pomp. Sometimes you've just got to hold your hands up and admit you arent good enough.

Not that the media will take any of that into account. They'll just be baying for blood.

Nothing like playing the Aussies in their pomp.

I would back us against India at home but I would never have said that about Australia in the days of Warne, McGrath, Ponting etc;

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Nothing like playing the Aussies in their pomp.

I would back us against India at home but I would never have said that about Australia in the days of Warne, McGrath, Ponting etc;

Agreed. If India came to England next summer we would have them on toast with seamer friendly pitches. As it is we are in India on spin friendly pitches and we are being stuffed. Both teams are set up for their home pitches and are vulnerable on wickets that offer the opposite of what the players thrive on. It shows how good Root in particular is as he scores wherever. It's a pleasure to watch him.

I do think we are stuck with an obsession of playing seamers no matter the wicket but maybe the quality of spinners is just not there at the moment. Until we bring some through we will continue to struggle in the sub continent.

Anderson complaining about the wicket is an embarrassment considering the ones that have been set up for him over the years. That is how test cricket has always been.

 

[Tongo]

You could swap the Aussies for that legendary West Indian side of the 70's and early 80's who played home and away and were largely unstoppable on any wicket. I take your point about Australia but if you look at their record in India it's not that good and 2004-5 was their last win there

Nothing like playing the Aussies in their pomp.

I would back us against India at home but I would never have said that about Australia in the days of Warne, McGrath, Ponting etc;

Agreed. If India came to England next summer we would have them on toast with seamer friendly pitches. As it is we are in India on spin friendly pitches and we are being stuffed. Both teams are set up for their home pitches and are vulnerable on wickets that offer the opposite of what the players thrive on. It shows how good Root in particular is as he scores wherever. It's a pleasure to watch him.

I do think we are stuck with an obsession of playing seamers no matter the wicket but maybe the quality of spinners is just not there at the moment. Until we bring some through we will continue to struggle in the sub continent.

Anderson complaining about the wicket is an embarrassment considering the ones that have been set up for him over the years. That is how test cricket has always been.

I wasnt saying India are as good as Australia in their pomp. Just saying that sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and admit the opposition are too good. Which was the case when the Aussies were top dog.

This particular series has parallels with the 1993 series in India when England similarly looked way out of their depth.

 

[vkurup]

That was quick this morning.. From Twitter sums up the tail... Eng lost their last 5 wkts in.. 70 balls at Dhaka in October 71 balls at Vizag in November 72 balls at Wankhede in December #IndvsEng

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I wasnt saying India are as good as Australia in their pomp. Just saying that sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and admit the opposition are too good. Which was the case when the Aussies were top dog.

This particular series has parallels with the 1993 series in India when England similarly looked way out of their depth.

No one could ever suggest that we have been anywhere near good enough in either Bangladesh or India.

The absence of spin from the domestic game not only means we have not got the bowling to compete on those pitches but also our batsmen are generally inadequate when faced with top quality spin.

I have no hesitation in praising India's performance but remain certain that it would be a completely different scenario if playing in England.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Tongo, I didn't mean it to come across that way. I was having a partial rant as I was annoyed with England, not you. The series swings massively depending on who is home and who is away. I want to see who is the best team but the dice is so loaded for the home team in both cases that you don't really know. Kohli goes from being an absolute rabbit that the England bowlers are fighting to get at to being the best in the world and no one wants the ball.

In the case of West Indies and Australia at their peaks there was never any doubt.

 

[vkurup]

Tongo, I didn't mean it to come across that way. I was having a partial rant as I was annoyed with England, not you. The series swings massively depending on who is home and who is away. I want to see who is the best team but the dice is so loaded for the home team in both cases that you don't really know. Kohli goes from being an absolute rabbit that the England bowlers are fighting to get at to being the best in the world and no one wants the ball.

In the case of West Indies and Australia at their peaks there was never any doubt.

That is a difference that 2 years in International cricket makes. 2014 was his lowest point as he admits it. He has turned a corner from there and gone from strength to strength after that. We had Swann who could spin, but he gave up/retired too early, which is sad for a sportsman.

Well we wont see the Cricket team bothering the SPOTY judges in a hurry.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Your last sentence is spot on.

I agree Kohli has moved on and is a joy to watch. I bet Anderson and Broad still fancy him back on English wickets though. If he does it on green tops then his game has moved on to another elite level.

Swann has been an enormous loss to England. He spun the ball, took wickets, but most of all he gave the captain control. He could close up an end and apply pressure if required. He was huge for England. He packed in because his elbow, I think it was his elbow, was shot and he could no longer but enough spin on the ball. The Aussies realised that and without the threat of spinning the ball they just took him to pieces. If a spinner is not spinning the ball then they are just bowling slow, straight deliveries. At pro level that is just fodder.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Your last sentence is spot on.

I agree Kohli has moved on and is a joy to watch. I bet Anderson and Broad still fancy him back on English wickets though. If he does it on green tops then his game has moved on to another elite level.

Swann has been an enormous loss to England. He spun the ball, took wickets, but most of all he gave the captain control. He could close up an end and apply pressure if required. He was huge for England. He packed in because his elbow, I think it was his elbow, was shot and he could no longer but enough spin on the ball. The Aussies realised that and without the threat of spinning the ball they just took him to pieces. If a spinner is not spinning the ball then they are just bowling slow, straight deliveries. At pro level that is just fodder.

Back in 2005 Ashley Giles did a great job for England without ever greatly turning it.

He maintained control and, thus, the seamers could keep pressing. Unfortunately none of the present generation of spinners look capable of bowling with such control.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

That is a great point about Giles. Maybe he just got a little more bounce or zip in his deliveries than Swann which meant he could do such a great job and not be exposed. I'm guessing there. I do know the Aussies cottoned on to Swann during his last series and had a field day with him. Perhaps he didn't fancy dropping into a different role that was so different to his main career when he had been at a better level previously. In Giles's case he had always bowled that way.

What we can say is that both of those offered their captain's control and none of the current crop can do that. Agreed.

 

[Tongo]

That is a difference that 2 years in International cricket makes. 2014 was his lowest point as he admits it. He has turned a corner from there and gone from strength to strength after that. We had Swann who could spin, but he gave up/retired too early, which is sad for a sportsman.

Well we wont see the Cricket team bothering the SPOTY judges in a hurry.

The concept of players improving seems lost on some. The earlier chat about Shami kind of highlighted that.

 

[Tongo]

Your last sentence is spot on.

I agree Kohli has moved on and is a joy to watch. I bet Anderson and Broad still fancy him back on English wickets though. If he does it on green tops then his game has moved on to another elite level.

Swann has been an enormous loss to England. He spun the ball, took wickets, but most of all he gave the captain control. He could close up an end and apply pressure if required. He was huge for England. He packed in because his elbow, I think it was his elbow, was shot and he could no longer but enough spin on the ball. The Aussies realised that and without the threat of spinning the ball they just took him to pieces. If a spinner is not spinning the ball then they are just bowling slow, straight deliveries. At pro level that is just fodder.

As was highlighted on TMS though, how many Englis test pitches are genuine green tops and how many are just chief executive pitches designed to last 5 days to maximise revenue?

 

[Tongo]

Hussain's point about the selectors is spot on for me:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cr...ion-biggest-factor-blame-India-struggles.html