Dropping away from immovable obstruction.

[backwoodsman]

When taking free relief from an immovable obstruction, l know that the nearest point of relief cannot be be in a hazard. However, NPOR relates to the location of tne ball - what about the players stance? l can think of scenarios where the NPOR is outside a hazard, but the players stance would be in one. Is this allowable?

We have a situation where a path is vary close to a pond (red stakes). There is no NPOR to the right of the path for a right handed player playing a righthand shot. But a leftie would have a NPOR on that side - if he stood in the hazard. I just wonder if that is tough on tbe leftie - or if the presence of the hazard makes a difference?

 

[Colin L]

It's just tough on the leftie, I would say. All that matters is that the ball is not in the hazard and there is complete relief from the obstruction. It does not, however, seem right to leave a situation like that. Left handed players should not be disadvantaged by the rules.

 

[backwoodsman]

It's just tough on the leftie, I would say. All that matters is that the ball is not in the hazard and there is complete relief from the obstruction. It does not, however, seem right to leave a situation like that. Left handed players should not be disadvantaged by the rules.

Thanks - you said what l thought. And l agree that in this particular case, lefties should not be disadvantaged - or indeed righties if there were a mirror image situation on the other side of fairway. (Although i dare say that LH and RH players do regularly get better/worse luck depending whereabouts on the course they are?)

Situation arises in that there is a narrow strip of grass between the path & the red markers. A leftie could drop on the grass, but would have to stand on the bank of the hazard to play it. A rightie would not have NPOR on that side of path (so would drop on fairway side of path). The obvious solution to make it fair regardless of dexterity (to me at least) would be to move the red markers up to the edge of the path - so that there is no NPOR on that side regardless of whether one is LH or RH player

 

[rulefan]

Leaving the sort of gap you describe always presents problems. Many players don't know how the rules should be applied correctly

 

[jim8flog]

The obvious solution to make it fair regardless of dexterity (to me at least) would be to move the red markers up to the edge of the path - so that there is no NPOR on that side regardless of whether one is LH or RH player

Have you put this in as a suggestion to your committee.

From January 2019 the clubs can make good use of the new Penalty Area Rules if they are given reason thought. We have a problem with one of our paths and the type of ground on one side adjacent to the path so we will be considering making this area a Penalty Area so that players only have to drop on one side of the path.

 

[backwoodsman]

Have you put this in as a suggestion to your committee.

Just had a conversation with the Chairman of handicap & comps ...

Seems the general view is that it is just a rub of the green - and that on balance, such disadvantages accrue to right handers & left handers in about equal measure around the course. In respect of my suggestion of moving the red markers to the edge of the path, it was pointed out that this would disadvantage more people - in that a ball that just rolled off the path would then automatically be in the hazard - even though it was lying on a nice flat bit of grass.

General thought was to leave as is ...

 

[rulefan]

it was pointed out that this would disadvantage more people - in that a ball that just rolled off the path would then automatically be in the hazard - even though it was lying on a nice flat bit of grass.

General thought was to leave as is ...

Next year it would be a penalty area without many of the constraints that come with a water hazard

 

[Colin L]

Have you put this in as a suggestion to your committee.

From January 2019 the clubs can make good use of the new Penalty Area Rules if they are given reason thought. We have a problem with one of our paths and the type of ground on one side adjacent to the path so we will be considering making this area a Penalty Area so that players only have to drop on one side of the path.[/QUO

Ditto. I'm looking at a problem area with a boundary line, a narrow verge and an artificial track with a view to making it a penalty area to avoid the current difficulties of relief from the track and of players no doubt assuming that if their ball is on the track they get to drop on the fairway side. If they're going to do that , they can cop a penalty stroke for the privilege .

 

[Colin L]

Just had a conversation with the Chairman of handicap & comps ...

Seems the general view is that it is just a rub of the green - and that on balance, such disadvantages accrue to right handers & left handers in about equal measure around the course. In respect of my suggestion of moving the red markers to the edge of the path, it was pointed out that this would disadvantage more people - in that a ball that just rolled off the path would then automatically be in the hazard - even though it was lying on a nice flat bit of grass.

General thought was to leave as is ...

Just accepting natural disadvantages that occur sometimes to right handers and sometimes to left handers - like a ball close to a tree - is fine. I do think, however, that if at all possible, no disadvantage to one or other should be created by course markings or anything else over which we have control.

 

[jim8flog]

Colin

You seem to have made a mistake about the penalty area being beside a track.

If the ball is on the track they get to drop on the 'fairway' side (if it is the nearest point of relief) without incurring a penalty shot because they do not have drop in the penalty area.

 

[jim8flog]

Just had a conversation with the Chairman of handicap & comps ...

Seems the general view is that it is just a rub of the green - and that on balance, such disadvantages accrue to right handers & left handers in about equal measure around the course. In respect of my suggestion of moving the red markers to the edge of the path, it was pointed out that this would disadvantage more people - in that a ball that just rolled off the path would then automatically be in the hazard - even though it was lying on a nice flat bit of grass.

General thought was to leave as is ...

But if the ball is lying on a nice flat bit of grass in the hazard the only disadvantage they have is that they cannot ground their club and in 2019 even this disadvantage will be removed. Seems to me in a few conversations I have had about Water Hazards is that quite a few people forget that their is nothing to stop a player playing a ball that is in a hazard.

 

[Colin L]

Colin

You seem to have made a mistake about the penalty area being beside a track.

If the ball is on the track they get to drop on the 'fairway' side (if it is the nearest point of relief) without incurring a penalty shot because they do not have drop in the penalty area.

I can't have explained the situation clearly enough. I'll come back to it later.

 

[atticusfinch]

Seems the general view is that it is just a rub of the green

Forgive my pedantry....A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

See here for an essay on its origins. http://www.ruleshistory.com/rub.html

 

[Colin L]

Colin

You seem to have made a mistake about the penalty area being beside a track.

If the ball is on the track they get to drop on the 'fairway' side (if it is the nearest point of relief) without incurring a penalty shot because they do not have drop in the penalty area.

Getting back to this one. There is a boundary on the left parallel with the fairway. An artificial track runs alongside the boundary but at varying distances from it. At one point the track is close enough to the boundary fence to make the verge so narrow that while you could find the NPR and drop at it, your right foot would be over the boundary with nothing to stand on because the ground drops quite precipitously down into a quarry. Lefties in this instance would be ok because their NPR would necessarily be on the fairway side. I expect most of our members assume they are entitled to drop fairway side and I don't like a set-up which encourages unknowing rule-breaking. I'm seeing the post-January remedy to be making a penalty area that will include the track so that everyone can leigtimately take relief on the fairway side. The cost of a stroke does not seem unreasonable becasue they would also be getting clear of some trees which are on the fairway side of the track

 

[backwoodsman]

Forgive my pedantry....A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

See here for an essay on its origins. http://www.ruleshistory.com/rub.html

Yes i know - just seemed a reasonable expression to suit the circumstance ...

 

[rulefan]

Yes, the world has adopted the expression.

 

[Colin L]

Forgive my pedantry....A "rub of the green" occurs when a ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency (see Rule 19-1).

See here for an essay on its origins. http://www.ruleshistory.com/rub.html

Alas, the essay will soon have to be updated to note its disappearance from the Rules.

 

[jim8flog]

Getting back to this one. There is a boundary on the left parallel with the fairway. An artificial track runs alongside the boundary but at varying distances from it. At one point the track is close enough to the boundary fence to make the verge so narrow that while you could find the NPR and drop at it, your right foot would be over the boundary with nothing to stand on because the ground drops quite precipitously down into a quarry. Lefties in this instance would be ok because their NPR would necessarily be on the fairway side. I expect most of our members assume they are entitled to drop fairway side and I don't like a set-up which encourages unknowing rule-breaking. I'm seeing the post-January remedy to be making a penalty area that will include the track so that everyone can leigtimately take relief on the fairway side. The cost of a stroke does not seem unreasonable becasue they would also be getting clear of some trees which are on the fairway side of the track

We have something similar on one of our holes and what we do is to have a drop zone.