clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
That’s because it is a lost ball, you can’t just assume it’s gone in the PA.
But the rules say 95% that’s open to abuse as well.
You should have to SEE it go in imo.
Drop quiery
- Thread starter User20204
- Start date
But the rules say 95% that’s open to abuse as well.
You should have to SEE it go in imo.
User20204
Well-known member
No you're right, you can't assume that, but on the balance of probability I'd be 95% certain it has.
RulesGuy
Member
We have a par 3 with a pond to the left which is not visible from the tee. The grass is short and there are no trees. If a ball goes towards the pond and is not found we deem it in the PA. We have not seen it go in but are virtually certain it is in as it would defy the law of physics for it not to be visible and not be in the pond either. It is a high standard of proof and will depend on all the circumstances
chrisd
Major Champion
I have no issue with your decision but a question that I've been challenged on. If a pond is red staked and you now don't have the option to drop either side of the pond as a lateral water hazard, can a drop be taken on the other side of the pond so long as the drop keeps in line with the last point where it crossed the hazard and the pin and no nearer the hole going back as far as you want? A PP said you can't take a drop under any circumstances on the other side of a stream, pond, ditch etc
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Yes but what if your opponent is only 94%.?
Silly rule imo you should see it go in
RulesGuy
Member
You can drop back in line from the last point of entry as you have always been able to do. The only difference is that you now have a club length from the point you choose on this reference line. It all depends on the circumstances what you choose to do providing you are sure etc that it went in the PA in the 1st place.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Yes you can. See Diagram #2 17.1d in Rule 17.1d for evidence to show the guy who said you can't.
chrisd
Major Champion
Cheers Colin
User20204
Well-known member
Fortunately we don't go on "your opinion" we go on the rules cause if was the case of someone's opinion, we'd be making it up as we went along. In respect of my opponent, I'm guessing you mean my playing partner ? if so, I'm genuinely not sure whether his opinion is relevant or not, if I'm 95% sure then at a guess, that's enough...isn't it ?
rulie
Head Pro
It's not anyone's "opinion", it's the facts of the situation. Based on the facts available, is it 95% probable that the ball is in the penalty area? Is there a 5% chance that it could be somewhere else?
User20204
Well-known member
Yes there is a 5% chance it could be stuck up a tree/bounced out 50 yards across the fairway/ricocheted 20 yards further on from where I believe it may be.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
I am talking your opponent in a matchplay I am sure his opinion will count when he says no.
As for making it up as you go along that’s what you are doing imo of course!
User20204
Well-known member
I don't play matchplay, and sorry no, I am using the rules to my advantage as opposed "making the rules up as I go along" and I believe we have already established that your opinion is not the rules.
rulefan
Tour Winner
It will only count if he requests a ruling and the referee or committee agree with him.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Fair enough what you do with your mates .
I never said my opinion is the rules but this is a forum it’s just my opinion .
You asked the question not me!
But if you play competitive golf you will be in for a tough time trying that on.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
I would say 99% of golfers I know would say it’s a lost ball.
I also think our committee would say so as well.
But hey that’s just my opinion!
User20204
Well-known member
I think I have given good and fair description of things, yet you seem hell bent on denying what I believe and some proper experts on here (given the info supplied) believe to be the correct way to precede. The ball is lost, it's lost with a 95% degree of certainty in the PA, can you say with a 95% degree of certainty it isn't lost in the PA ? I would suggest you couldn't so basis for you saying it being lost outwith the PA carries a fair degree less certainty.
Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean you are correct, may be something you may wish to consider next time you have a similar situation to the one I have described.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
I just don’t agree there’s no certainty it’s guesswork!
I don’t need to prove anything ! it’s lost but we don’t know where so have a guess.
If I didn’t think I was correct I would not bother giving my opinion.( on a forum )
But if you want to bend the rules to your advantage and your pps let you be my guest.
My point is you would not get such a consession from most club golfers.
Maybe you need to think that if you ask a question you get more than one answer.
Not just your mate saying “that’s fineâ€
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rulie
Head Pro
Is there a 6% chance of those things happening? If there is, it is not known or virtually certain that the ball not found is in the penalty area and then it's a stroke and distance situation.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
"experts on here (given the info supplied) believe to be the correct way to proceed"
No expert would rule on such a situation without seeing the surrounding area etc
What has been given is information upon which such a situation should be assessed. This include the fact that a ball may be lost in a penalty area without having been seen to enter the area (because it cannot be anywhere else).
Opinion (valid) includes the view that as soon as any circumstances exist where the ball could be lost somewhere else the ability to establish that it is virtually certain that it was lost in the penalty area reduces extremely quickly.
Put another way, it's rare to find a penalty area, hidden from view from the tee, surrounded by closely mown grass for a suitable distance. It does exist, and is generally recognised for that by those that play there.
In the example you have given you reference a dogleg and trees - personally I struggle to visualise how a hole can be a dogleg without there being some physical features on the inside of it. It would merely be a very wide fairway otherwise! The inclusion of trees increases the variance attached to where the ball might be very significantly (not from it being up the trees but from where it might be deflected). These are all the sorts of things that people are clearly picking up on when giving their opinion on your posts.
No expert would rule on such a situation without seeing the surrounding area etc
What has been given is information upon which such a situation should be assessed. This include the fact that a ball may be lost in a penalty area without having been seen to enter the area (because it cannot be anywhere else).
Opinion (valid) includes the view that as soon as any circumstances exist where the ball could be lost somewhere else the ability to establish that it is virtually certain that it was lost in the penalty area reduces extremely quickly.
Put another way, it's rare to find a penalty area, hidden from view from the tee, surrounded by closely mown grass for a suitable distance. It does exist, and is generally recognised for that by those that play there.
In the example you have given you reference a dogleg and trees - personally I struggle to visualise how a hole can be a dogleg without there being some physical features on the inside of it. It would merely be a very wide fairway otherwise! The inclusion of trees increases the variance attached to where the ball might be very significantly (not from it being up the trees but from where it might be deflected). These are all the sorts of things that people are clearly picking up on when giving their opinion on your posts.
