Drop quiery

[User20204]

Playing a dogleg par 4 that has a red staked water penalty area at the corner. Drives carries the corner but hits the trees and is "presumed" back in the water.

What is the correct procedure from there, bearing in mind ball wasn't witnessed going back in to water back can only be there as there is no where else it can be.

 

[rulefan]

You have to be 'virtually certain' that the ball is in the penalty area. ie 95%confidence. If it could possibly anwhere else it is not in the penalty are

 

[duncan mackie]

The correct procedure based on what you have described would be to play a provisional ball from the tee.
If subsequent evidence provides the necessary certainty that the ball isn't lost, but in the penalty area, then the player must abandon the provisional and continue with the original ball under the options available to him.
Such new evidence could include a person who observed the ball come off the tree and fall into, and remain in, the penalty area or finding the ball in the penalty area (as examples)

 

[User20204]

That's an interesting couple of replies, saying the same but different as I would be at least 95% certain the ball was in the penalty area as there is or should I say, was no where else it could be as it was no where to be seen.

 

[duncan mackie]

That's an interesting couple of replies, saying the same but different as I would be at least 95% certain the ball was in the penalty area as there is or should I say, was no where else it could be as it was no where to be seen.

You are adding more information than you originally posted - which changes things!

If there's nowhere else that it could be without being immediately obvious then, when you get up there, it is certain that it's in the penalty area!
Now, increase the height of the surrounding grass from fairway height to 2", with some clover, and the possibility of it being hidden in that area increases...
Add in some patchy rough along the outside of the penalty area and those possibilities increase further.
95% is a pretty tough measure; but accepts that at times you can't be 100% certain.

 

[User20204]

As it stands, there are trees and no rough just bare ground beneath the trees, if the ball was anywhere else it would be fully visible, if a ball is hit into that area and if not found, everyone presumes it is in the water(penalty area).

I'm sure you can see what I'm trying to do here, I'm trying to use the rules to my benefit, I obviously can't be certain the ball is in the water but if it is no where around the bottom of the trees, it has to be in the water, which leads be to think I can take a drop, and if so, where would a drop be taken from if I know for a fact it cleared the penalty area.

 

[backwoodsman]

From what I've read so far, l don't think you can be anywhere near 95% certain that the ball is in the penalty area. Balls hitting trees frequently ricochet in unexpected directions - and without being seen where they've gone to. From what you say it could easily be under a leaf, behind a tree stem, or even sitting up nicely - just not where you're looking. Obviously l don't know the course &/or the precise circumstances - but I'm afraid you'll have a hard job convincing me that you'd be entitled fo a drop.

 

[User20204]

From what I've read so far, l don't think you can be anywhere near 95% certain that the ball is in the penalty area. Balls hitting trees frequently ricochet in unexpected directions - and without being seen where they've gone to. From what you say it could easily be under a leaf, behind a tree stem, or even sitting up nicely - just not where you're looking. Obviously l don't know the course &/or the precise circumstances - but I'm afraid you'll have a hard job convincing me that you'd be entitled fo a drop.

And I'm not disagreeing with you. Everyone who loses a ball there plays three off the tee, and yet probably everyone knows their ball will be in the water. If you asked anyone who played three off the tee where they believe their ball to be, everyone would say, it's in the water cause it's the only place it can be.

It's my belief that everyone, including myself, should be able to take the drop, why ? because it is so obvious where the balls are.

 

[duncan mackie]

It's my belief that everyone, including myself, should be able to take the drop, why ? because it is so obvious where the balls are.

You are answering your own question.

The rules are clear - if 'so obvious' >= 95% then you make your best estimate of where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area and can use that reference to establish your options, in addition to replaying from the tee.

 

[User20204]

The rules are clear - if 'so obvious' >= 95% then you make your best estimate of where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area and can use that reference to establish your options, in addition to replaying from the tee.

So my question is this, where do I drop from ? For the ball to be in the water, it has to go backwards into the water. i.e. it has crossed in front at an angle across the water, so what I'm trying to establish is where can a drop be taken from ? If you look upon the water being a rectangle shape and the ball is flying over the corner of it and falling back in to...I do hope that makes sense.

 

[backwoodsman]

In which case, you have the normal options. Firstly estimate where the ball last crossed the margin of the PA. That it was travelling backwards, and probably away from the hole, is irrelevant. It is still the point of "where last crossed". Then you can have a drop, 2CL not nearer the hole. If thats not possible, you may be lumbered with "back on a line" - which may be back over the hazard. Or of course you have " from where previous stroke made".

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Not disagreeing with any of the advice, but how dense are the trees were you believe your ball hit and how wide is the penalty area?
If you have no idea which tree it hit, how do you determine were it crossed the hazard, edge of the trees, middle of the trees?
In some ways, depending on the layout, the 3 off the tee maybe a better option than being >95% certain it’s in the water.

 

[duncan mackie]

So my question is this, where do I drop from ? For the ball to be in the water, it has to go backwards into the water. i.e. it has crossed in front at an angle across the water, so what I'm trying to establish is where can a drop be taken from ? If you look upon the water being a rectangle shape and the ball is flying over the corner of it and falling back in to...I do hope that makes sense.

Probably best If you look at the diagrams in rule 17, or some of the other material available on the R&A or USGA sites. They are very clear.

 

[User20204]

Probably best If you look at the diagrams in rule 17, or some of the other material available on the R&A or USGA sites. They are very clear.

So I believe I can take a drop from #3 which I believe is hugely misinterpreted by almost all the players playing that hole losing a ball in the water, because I think they all, including myself, play 3 from the tee as we believe the ball is lost, when in fact, it's in the penalty area, correct ????????

 

[Deleted member 16999]

So I believe I can take a drop from #3 which I believe is hugely misinterpreted by almost all the players playing that hole losing a ball in the water, because I think they all, including myself, play 3 from the tee as we believe the ball is lost, when in fact, it's in the penalty area, correct ????????

How far are the trees and how dense are they?

What if option #3 gives you no shot out of the trees?

 

[rulefan]

As it is a red penalty area, #3 is available.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

As it is a red penalty area, #3 is available.

Sorry to be pedantic, not disagreeing with the rules or options for a red penalty area, but how can he identify were it crossed into the hazard in this scenario to use that option correctly?

Understanding that no one witnessed it and him being back on the tee can’t see it.

 

[User20204]

Sorry I thought I'd posted the pic.

The tree are sparse and nothing below them

For some reason it's not letting me post the usga pic.

 

[User20204]

Sorry to be pedantic, not disagreeing with the rules or options for a red penalty area, but how can he identify were it crossed into the hazard in this scenario to use that option correctly?

Understanding that no one witnessed it and him being back on the tee can’t see it.

It's a dogleg, trying to hit to the corner, you come off it, it carries the water (which can clearly be seen) and goes in t the trees. One gets up there, no ball to be seen, it can only be one place, back in the water.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It's a dogleg, trying to hit to the corner, you come off it, it carries the water (which can clearly be seen) and goes in t the trees. One gets up there, no ball to be seen, it can only be one place, back in the water.

Yes, totally understand that, but using option #3 in the rules, it shows X as the point the ball enters the penalty area, how is that identified in this scenario, you haven’t seen it and initially look around the trees before saying you are >95% it’s in the water, somewhere.