Does God Exist?

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I think there is a difference between believing in Creationism (i.e. what Genesis tells us) and believing their being a guiding hand/grand designer. But even that focusses solely on the physical and not the spiritual consciousness aspect of life.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I think there is a difference between believing in Creationism (i.e. what Genesis tells us) and believing their being a guiding hand/grand designer. But even that focusses solely on the physical and not the spiritual consciousness aspect of life.
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I think that is called being agnostic? Or sitting on the fence... :)
 
SocketRocket said:
James, thats a bit of a cop out. What ever you go back to needs a seed to start it growing. Or, did the seed also evolve from a primeval soup?
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Every living thing on the planet has evolved from the first life that evolved 3.5 billion yrs ago. Call it what you like, soup, slime or gou it really doesn't matter, its were we all come from. Yes even the first trees, seeds and cherry trees. Darwin called it the tree of life, we, now call it the theory of evolution, a theory now widely accepted even by the mainsteam religions. The body of evidence is just to great to ignore.
 
stromatolites_lge.jpg

Stromatolites are our parents if you believe that sort of thing…
Do you know what a Stromatolite is? I didn’t until I read chapter 19 in Bill Bryson’s book “A Short History of Nearly Everything” – which I highly recommend by the way.

Well a Stromatolite is one of the first comlex living organism’s that arrived on the scene called earth about 3.5 billion years ago; which is quite young considering the earth is only 4.5 billion years old. The fascinating thing is that in Shark Bay Australia, they still exist! I’ve never been there, but Bill Bryson says, “…it is a curiously giddying moment to find yourself staring at living remnants of earth as it is was 3.5 billion years ago (p299).”

Knowing what it is, I’m in fact a bit awed by the picture, as unimpressive as it is
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The microbes are only on the very top surface of the structures and everything under that to the sea bed is dead Stromatolites.
3.5 BILLION years ago. That's a tad longer than the 6 thousand years old creationists would have us believe everything is.
 
walshawwhippet said:
Every living thing on the planet has evolved from the first life that evolved 3.5 billion yrs ago. Call it what you like, soup, slime or gou it really doesn't matter, its were we all come from. Yes even the first trees, seeds and cherry trees. Darwin called it the tree of life, we, now call it the theory of evolution, a theory now widely accepted even by the mainsteam religions. The body of evidence is just to great to ignore.
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The argument isn't with Evolution, it's that a number of the systems we see in modern living things are difficult to explain as the products of chance mutation and natural selection especially as some of these systems have been around in more or less their present form for millions of years.
 
coolhand said:
The argument isn't with Evolution, it's that a number of the systems we see in modern living things are difficult to explain as the products of chance mutation and natural selection especially as some of these systems have been around in more or less their present form for millions of years.
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The things that have been around millions of years are the survivors... (natural selection, survival of the fittest and all that) the rest has quite simply died out.

The branches of the evloution tree split from so far back that it could easily diversify into the vast array of life forms on the planet... and probably many new species still to come (given the opportunity), just think how many branches come off just the one oak tree trunk... and then how many twigs.... keep that going for about 3.5 billion years and that's a lot of twigs.

The whole DNA story is just getting started, as soon as we learn to read the patterns quicker than we currently can we'll literally be able to wipe out every single deformity, many ilnesses and diseases.... then we can work until we're 150yrs old for a decent pension! :mmm:
 
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coolhand said:
The argument isn't with Evolution, it's that a number of the systems we see in modern living things are difficult to explain as the products of chance mutation and natural selection especially as some of these systems have been around in more or less their present form for millions of years.
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Similar answer to James'. If the enviroment your in doesn't change then there's no need to adapt. If you like shallow, warm salty seas, with vitually no airbourne pollution, then like Andy's stromatalites you can find yourself hanging around in shark bay in western australia for billions of years. Not the same colony by the way, just the same organism, if you no what i mean :mmm:.
 
DNA may be the blueprint for each species now and for billions of years but there was a predecessor to this in the form of RNA (Ribonucleic Acid). The only thing scientists don't know is what preceeded this but it's only a matter of time.
 
Andy808 said:
DNA may be the blueprint for each species now and for billions of years but there was a predecessor to this in the form of RNA (Ribonucleic Acid). The only thing scientists don't know is what preceeded this but it's only a matter of time.
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Good point Andy.
RNA is still around though in viruses i think. I believe the reason why HIV is so hard to treat is because the viruses RNA supplants its self into the hosts DNA, effectively becoming "new" DNA, Thus infecting the whole system eventually through cell division.
Any Docs please feel free to correct me, i much prefer rocks to biology :p
 
It depends what you mean by god, but the god of theistic religion......almost certainly not. I'm baffled why in this day and age people still believe this stuff. Without wanting to offend, I think theistic religion is just an evolutionary step up from sun/fire worship.
 
WeekendHacker said:
It depends what you mean by god, but the god of theistic religion......almost certainly not. I'm baffled why in this day and age people still believe this stuff. Without wanting to offend, I think theistic religion is just an evolutionary step up from sun/fire worship.
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That far?
To be honest it's on a par. They are just for control of the minds and actions of the masses. A government can't get the population to vote yet a 2000 year old book of stories has people going to the same place at the same time week after week.
 
JustOne said:
The things that have been around millions of years are the survivors... (natural selection, survival of the fittest and all that) the rest has quite simply died out.

The branches of the evloution tree split from so far back that it could easily diversify into the vast array of life forms on the planet... and probably many new species still to come (given the opportunity), just think how many branches come off just the one oak tree trunk... and then how many twigs.... keep that going for about 3.5 billion years and that's a lot of twigs.

The whole DNA story is just getting started, as soon as we learn to read the patterns quicker than we currently can we'll literally be able to wipe out every single deformity, many ilnesses and diseases.... then we can work until we're 150yrs old for a decent pension! :mmm:
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I was talking biological systems not species i.e:
  1. The digestive system, it takes a lots of components working well togetherto do it’s job.
  2. Sex based reproduction – very inefficient for simple reproduction, yet very effective for evolution.
  3. Eyes.
Another thing came up in a book I'm reading on Quatum Physics:

How come electrons and protons have equal yet opposite charges? If they didn't nothing would exisit.
 
coolhand said:
I was talking biological systems not species i.e:
  1. The digestive system, it takes a lots of components working well togetherto do it’s job.
  2. Sex based reproduction – very inefficient for simple reproduction, yet very effective for evolution.
  3. Eyes.
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The systems haven't changed because they do their job... although the systems vary massivley from species to species (cow has 4 stomachs) I'm sure these systems are still improving however the change is so small we hardly notice it.... when the systems don't improve however.... the thing DIES.

I'll give two examples...

1) There was recently an outbreak of ebola and some 140 people died... but some didn't? Why... it's possible that their DNA makes them more resistant to the ebola.. and they become SURVIVORS as their DNA is strong and it'll mostly get passed on to their offspring.

2) My wife had a still born, his DNA glitched and he didn't get the gene to grow kidneys.. he died. simple.

DNA works both ways, sometimes the systems don't even form...but we only see examples where the systems DID form as they are the ones who are still alive! Sometimes instead of the system making a BAD mistake it's a GOOD mistake... and someone ends up with kidneys that work so flippin' well that they never have a kidney problem unfortunately no one ever notices as they're never at the doctors with a kidney complaint! :p

These systems have been in development for 3 billion years... developing from the most basic/primitive systems into very complex ones... such as brains.
 
The main scientific reason why there is no evidence for evolution in either the present or the past (except in the creative imagination of evolutionary scientists) is because one of the most fundamental laws of nature precludes it. The law of increasing entropy -- also known as the second law of thermodynamics -- stipulates that all systems in the real world tend to go "downhill," as it were, toward disorganisation and decreased complexity.
 
SocketRocket said:
The main scientific reason why there is no evidence for evolution in either the present or the past (except in the creative imagination of evolutionary scientists) is because one of the most fundamental laws of nature precludes it. The law of increasing entropy -- also known as the second law of thermodynamics -- stipulates that all systems in the real world tend to go "downhill," as it were, toward disorganisation and decreased complexity.
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When you copy whole paragraphs you should quote the source......
http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resources_tracts_scientificcaseagainstevolution/

icr.org ....."equips believers with evidence of the Bible's accuracy and authority" ....now then, now then :mmm:
 
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