DMD's on phones - I wish they would sort it properly

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

...the rules have to be defined absolutely clearly and set in stone now because it is not just what other measurements etc that you can get from a device or devices today, and what you cannot do with them today, that matters but what clever technologists will devise in the future. That is what I was trying to get at with my example.

Just by saying that I can't get any advantage out of measurements of such as prevailiing weather conditions, ground slope or compass bearings today means absolutely nothing for the future. Write the rules in a way that allows devices to provide such meaurements then before long - maybe not tomorrow or next year - a way will be found to use them to advantage - 100% guaranteed.

 

[duncan mackie]

I was going to make this point earlier, but felt that I'd said enough!

This is another reason why the current rule makes no sense.

I've also said enough on this topic, so I will also bow out.

I've never said that the reason for differentiating the rules for DMD isn't worthy of debate on it's own, and mefromhere makes a god point. Earlier in this thread I set out my understanding of why it was introduced this way, and included equipment examples to illustrate the point (not smartphones!).

My underlying message remains - the rules are clear; but some people don't agree with them. This in itself is hardly groundbreaking news as you can add a whole load of other golf, or even club, rules to which this applies.

What I have said

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Am oot as well. I don't care that much whether DMD and smartphone users get their knickers in a twist over this as I'd rather have them not allowed at all in comps. So my battle is lost.

 

[Rooter]

so 25 pages in. can i use my golfshot app on my iphone in a comp or not?

 

[Foxholer]

so 25 pages in. can i use my golfshot app on my iphone in a comp or not?

No!

That's been stressed several/many times.

 

[Foxholer]

It strikes me as very odd that in a game of trust, where you can be hundreds of yards away from anybody else and it to be assumed that you will call a penalty on yourself if you were dislodge a single leaf from a tree on a practice swing that individual players cannot be trusted not to use banned information when looking at a phone.

I have to say it does look a lot like it could be down to DMD manufacturers making sure that their 2/3/400 pound device is not being overtaken by something that can cost literally nothing!

I've always resolved that query, which is valid, by considering whether incidents are planned, accidental or merely part of a round of golf. The penalties involved also seem to reflect this, single penalties (golfing incidents), multiple (but max-ed) penalties (accidental ones such as more than 14 clubs) or DQ (for planned ones such as use of non-conforming equipment).

Btw. Dislodging a single leaf (or even multiple leaves) from a tree on a practice swing isn't necessarily a breach! See Decision 13-2/0.5 here http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=99016EEB-B150-44D9-B4B4-53C2AF99E38A

 

[Region3]

It strikes me as very odd that in a game of trust, where you can be hundreds of yards away from anybody else and it to be assumed that you will call a penalty on yourself if you were dislodge a single leaf from a tree on a practice swing that individual players cannot be trusted not to use banned information when looking at a phone.

I have to say it does look a lot like it could be down to DMD manufacturers making sure that their 2/3/400 pound device is not being overtaken by something that can cost literally nothing!

Another myth

Edit - I knew I should have read the rest of the thread before I posted!

 

[Region3]

As others - especially Duncan - have said, the rules are clear.

The logic behind the rule isn't so clear, but that's not the important bit.

I don't understand WHY I'm not allowed to do 80 on the motorway when my brakes, tyres and steering are 10 times better than the cars of the day when the limit was introduced.
I know I'm not allowed to though, so don't.

 

[Joff]

As others - especially Duncan - have said, the rules are clear.

The logic behind the rule isn't so clear, but that's not the important bit.

I don't understand WHY I'm not allowed to do 80 on the motorway when my brakes, tyres and steering are 10 times better than the cars of the day when the limit was introduced.
I know I'm not allowed to though, so don't.

Cars were lighter then. Stopping distances about the same ;-)

 

[Region3]

Cars were lighter then. Stopping distances about the same ;-)

Sort of proves my point.

It would be quite easy to have a discussion about the pros and cons of raising the speed limit, but it changes nothing.

Some people agree with the limit and stick to it.
Some don't agree but stick to it.
Some don't agree and break it.

There is no confusion about what the limit actually is.

 

[sev112]

I've loved watching this thread , I have very little to add to it.
At the end of the day,it doesn't matter what information a gizmo gives me, I still have to hit the shot.
And as I mentioned before, everything that DMds and smartphones currently give you, and in the future might be able to give you, are already given (to the pros at least) by their caddy who knows the prevailing wind direction , slope, how far they hit a 3/4 7iron on a parkland ourselves where the humidity and temperature is what itis.

Ban caddies I say. Make people carry their own clubs or push their own trolleys

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And as I mentioned before, everything that DMds and smartphones currently give you, and in the future might be able to give you, are already given (to the pros at least) by their caddy who knows the prevailing wind direction , slope, how far they hit a 3/4 7iron on a parkland ourselves where the humidity and temperature is what it is

And it is this that the error is made - as for the future these statement together are just not true - or more accurately - we just don't know.

However - as I posted earlier - my very strong inclining is that a players very detailed practice data gathered under a variety of simulated weather and playing conditions will be 'stored in the cloud' Technology will be developed to integrate this practice data with detailed data about the player's game on the day combined with all the weather, play and lie conditions prevalent at any point in time during a round to provide detailed guidance to the player on all aspects of the shot he is about to play. A caddy on his own cannot do this in a logical and structured way and would not be able to do it in future in way that technology will be able to do so. That's the risk - leave the door slightly ajar today and it will be barged open by technology in the not too distant future and shutting it may prove to be impossible.

 

[Backsticks]

Intersting thread.
Mr Hogan is trying to turn back the tide, and while perfectly entitled to stick to his guns, doesnt for me make any cogent case that supports his stance (yes, yes, building a stance is against the rules!)

DMDs are here to stay - the bottom line is people want them becuase they make the game more fun and convenient for the overwhelming majority of golfers who play without a human caddy, without conferring an advantage for actually hitting the ball. A human caddy certainly contributes more to helping a player than a DMD will.

The core of the problem is that the R&A has slipped up in legislating for them on two points.

First, they chickened out of taking the full decision. The local rule element was a cop out fudge. Local rules are to allow exactly that : 'local' rules to be implemented to cater for particularities of individual courses that do not apply to all : staked tree drops for courses with loads of young trees, stones in bunkers, obliging replay of a shot that hits overhead wires, droping zones etc. The DMD decision is not course dependant and should never have been put in that category.

Second, the technology moves fast and they probably didnt really understand it. The effort to prohibit devices that have other facilites than simple distance measurement was too impractical to implement well : bad law is no law. Of course the average golfer sees no problem in having a device with weather or compass facility on it - the great majority have no use for those functions helping their play anyway, even if they were permitted to use them. The idea that you can have a compass in you pocket or a 15th club in your back declared out of play, yet you cannot use a DMD that could have weather app on it is clearly nonsense.

I expect the R&A will clear it all up in the near future. DMDs will be universally legal. There will be no distinction of what devices can be used, however the rule will prohibit non distance functions from being used under the same trust that prohibits us using our toe in the rough to improve the lie.

(btw, mentioned by someone that they should be legal for casual/friendly golf, but not for competition. Whats that about, if its friendly golf you can play whatever rules you like. Noone cares).

 

[sev112]

And it is this that the error is made - as for the future these statement together are just not true - or more accurately - we just don't know.

However - as I posted earlier - my very strong inclining is that a players very detailed practice data gathered under a variety of simulated weather and playing conditions will be 'stored in the cloud' Technology will be developed to integrate this practice data with detailed data about the player's game on the day combined with all the weather, play and lie conditions prevalent at any point in time during a round to provide detailed guidance to the player on all aspects of the shot he is about to play. A caddy on his own cannot do this in a logical and structured way and would not be able to do it in future in way that technology will be able to do so. That's the risk - leave the door slightly ajar today and it will be barged open by technology in the not too distant future and shutting it may prove to be impossible.

Ok , friendly last disagreement
A caddy already does this for the pros - it is what they spend their time looking at their book/notes, and look at the trees, and take into account temperature, they know they arson a side hill/sloping lie, and they have all the details of all the distances that the pro hitsbwithball his clubs, full shots half shots the lot .
Irrespective of your confidence that computers will get better at this in the future, it is already allowed at the moment, and the reason why Big Phil paid his caddy circa 100K for last weekend's work

 

[duncan mackie]

The core of the problem is that the R&A has slipped up in legislating for them on two points.

First, they chickened out of taking the full decision. The local rule element was a cop out fudge. Local rules are to allow exactly that : 'local' rules to be implemented to cater for particularities of individual courses that do not apply to all : staked tree drops for courses with loads of young trees, stones in bunkers, obliging replay of a shot that hits overhead wires, droping zones etc. The DMD decision is not course dependant and should never have been put in that category.

Second, the technology moves fast and they probably didnt really understand it. The effort to prohibit devices that have other facilites than simple distance measurement was too impractical to implement well : bad law is no law. Of course the average golfer sees no problem in having a device with weather or compass facility on it - the great majority have no use for those functions helping their play anyway, even if they were permitted to use them. The idea that you can have a compass in you pocket or a 15th club in your back declared out of play, yet you cannot use a DMD that could have weather app on it is clearly nonsense.

This is standard Rules practice where there may be situations where the application of a Rule is considered inappropriate; the last example related to reducing the penalty for being late but arriving within 5 mins which moved from committee option to rule last time round. Whether you believe that taking into account where possible the wishes of the major professional tours is chickening out or not is a seperate debate, but this is the only mechanism whereby they can exclude their use.

On your second point, it's quite the opposite and the development of the NC DMD devices is showing the wisdom of the implementation.

A huge part of me would like to believe that your expectations for the future are matched by the integrity of players. However experience has shown that many who would never use a leather wedge will freely use their own interpretation of other rules without considering it really cheating, as well as the odd individuals who will do anything they feel they can get away with.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm not trying to turn back the tide - the tide is in and Distancer Measuring Devices are allowed. All I am saying is that I think that the R&A should be very wary about allowing devices that provide other information to the player on thegrounds that today the player can't make a lot of use of it.

And on the caddy front - I'm not that bothered about pro golf - my concern is for club competions. I for one don't really wish to have to go down the route of getting a gizmo in the future because the gizmo of the future effectively becomes a super personal caddy. At the moment the DMD gives distance measurements that I as a player could garner in other ways - myself - and on the day. I'd rather the player made decisions rather than have technology make all the decisions for him.