Did I count up right?

[Swinglowandslow]

Hello.
Medal competition yesterday, not my favourite!, and my longest drive didn’t help.
This is what happened.
I drove far enough along the fairway for my ball to go into the ditch traversing the fairway.
That was the bad news.
The good news was that it rolled up the further slope of the ditch to within inches of the top, so I thought I could play it.
So, I swung my 8 iron and made a complete mess of it, the ball squirted of to the side quite a long way into a big block of gorse bushes. Clearly, it was lost .
That was shot 2.
Drop another ball on the same spot, shot 3.
However, that spot was within the penalty area, towards the top of the slope, and thus rolls into the bottom, a position from which a shot could not be made.
So, I drop out of the penalty area area, shot number 4.
I hit towards the green, shot number 5.

That’s what went on the card, does anyone think otherwise?

Incidentally, shot 6 on to the green and 3 putts for a 9. ! Happy days, and long live stablefords!,

Of course, with hindsight , if I had dropped from the penalty area after the tee shot, I would’ve been a happier fella.

I suppose the question is……did I have to drop on the same spot from which I played the second shot, ( i e ,within the penalty area, ) or does 1 or 2 club lengths from that spot come into it.?

Cheers

 

[jim8flog]

Hello.
Medal competition yesterday, not my favourite!, and my longest drive didn’t help.
This is what happened.
I drove far enough along the fairway for my ball to go into the ditch traversing the fairway.
That was the bad news.
The good news was that it rolled up the further slope of the ditch to within inches of the top, so I thought I could play it.
So, I swung my 8 iron and made a complete mess of it, the ball squirted of to the side quite a long way into a big block of gorse bushes. Clearly, it was lost .
That was shot 2.
Drop another ball on the same spot, shot 3.
However, that spot was within the penalty area, towards the top of the slope, and thus rolls into the bottom, a position from which a shot could not be made.
So, I drop out of the penalty area area, shot number 4.
I hit towards the green, shot number 5.

That’s what went on the card, does anyone think otherwise?

Incidentally, shot 6 on to the green and 3 putts for a 9. ! Happy days, and long live stablefords!,

Of course, with hindsight , if I had dropped from the penalty area after the tee shot, I would’ve been a happier fella.

I suppose the question is……did I have to drop on the same spot from which I played the second shot, ( i e ,within the penalty area, ) or does 1 or 2 club lengths from that spot come into it.?

Cheers

Bold bit

Shot 4 not stroke 3 Stroke and distance for a ball lost

When you dropped the ball and it rolled in to the bottom of the ditch was it within 1 club length? if not it should have been dropped again
Drop out of eh penalty the next shot becomes shot 6

 

[rulefan]

Hello.

So, I swung my 8 iron and made a complete mess of it, the ball squirted of to the side quite a long way into a big block of gorse bushes. Clearly, it was lost .

Drop another ball on the same spot, shot 3.

I assume you didn't actually search and in fact took an 'unplayable' and played under Stroke & Distance
The requirement for that rule says "the player may play the original ball or another ball from where the previous stroke was made (see Rule 14.6)."
You should have placed the ball on its original spot and played from there
It would seem you didn't do that but played from a wrong place

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Bold bit

Shot 4 not stroke 3 Stroke and distance for a ball lost

When you dropped the ball and it rolled in to the bottom of the ditch was it within 1 club length? if not it should have been dropped again
Drop out of eh penalty the next shot becomes shot 6

Sorry, don’t think so.
I played from the same place that I played the ‘lost’ ball from, so I incur only one penalty stroke.
Same as , e.g. shot 1 off a tee is lost , next shot from the tee is shot 3,
Shot 2 is the penalty shot, yes?

In my case, where I say shot 3, that is the ‘shots’ total so far. ( two actual hits and a penalty stroke).I have only at this point only actually hit two balls with my club. You will recall I didn’t hit ‘shot 4’, ; having “dropped” the next ball to be played which rolls to the bottom of the ditch.
To labour the point, there has been no third swing at a ball at this point.

Rulefan is saying, with what seems might well be the case, that I could have placed
the ball back at the top of the penalty area and played(again) from there.
Thus saving me having to incur a penalty stroke for taking relief from a penalty area.
We were under the impression that the new ball to be hit had to be dropped.

So, a wonderful 8 then

Thanks for the replies

 

[rulefan]

Rulefan is saying, with what seems might well be the case, that I could have placed
the ball back at the top of the penalty area and played(again) from there.

Sorry. The reference point was where the ball was originally. The ball should have been dropped within 1cl of that point. If it rolls outside that area it must be dropped again (as jim8flog says).

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Sorry. The reference point was where the ball was originally. The ball should have been dropped within 1cl of that point. If it rolls outside that area it must be dropped again (as jim8flog says).

Aha, then, I may have done myself a misservice.? I think the topography was such that had I done that , I could have done so outside the penalty area. From a flat lie maybe put the fourth shot on the green( if I hit a good ‘un)
Thanks

 

[Steven Rules]

Aha, then, I may have done myself a misservice.? I think the topography was such that had I done that , I could have done so outside the penalty area. From a flat lie maybe put the fourth shot on the green( if I hit a good ‘un)
Thanks

Just in case there is any confusion on this point, when making a stroke from where the previous stroke was made and that spot was in a penalty area - the reference point is the spot where the previous stroke was made, and the one club-length relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point (i.e. in the penalty area) and not nearer the hole than the reference point. Rule 14.6b

i.e. you have to drop inside the penalty area.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Just in case there is any confusion on this point, when making a stroke from where the previous stroke was made and that spot was in a penalty area - the reference point is the spot where the previous stroke was made, and the one club-length relief area must be in the same area of the course as the reference point (i.e. in the penalty area) and not nearer the hole than the reference point. Rule 14.6b

i.e. you have to drop inside the penalty area.

So, back to my original thinking, almost. I thought I had to drop on the same spot, but now I could have dropped within 1 club length, but within the penalty area?
I can see that as making sense.
In any event, any dropping within the penalty area would have got the ball hurling to the bottom of such area, and thus impossible to play.

So, 9 shots was right for the hole…

Don’t you just love medals….( I would if I was a single handicap!)

Thanks to everyone

 

[Steven Rules]

In any event, any dropping within the penalty area would have got the ball hurling to the bottom of such area, and thus impossible to play.

As others have said, if the ball rolls outside the relief area, you drop again. If it rolls out again, you place it where it hit the ground the second time. Potentially no need to be playing from the bottom of the ditch unless that is the only place the ball would remain at rest when placed.

 

[KenL]

In this situation, after the ball was lost, can you choose to not drop within the penalty area or must you drop within 1 cl of where the last stroke was made?

If you can drop outside the PA, should you drop where the ball from shot 1 crossed the margin or where shot 2 crossed the margin?

 

[Swinglowandslow]

In this situation, after the ball was lost, can you choose to not drop within the penalty area or must you drop within 1 cl of where the last stroke was made?

If you can drop outside the PA, should you drop where the ball from shot 1 crossed the margin or where shot 2 crossed the margin?

Well, shot 2 would cross the margin whilst leaving the penalty area, so I don’t think that comes into it. ( might be wrong,)

 

[Swinglowandslow]

As others have said, if the ball rolls outside the relief area, you drop again. If it rolls out again, you place it where it hit the ground the second time. Potentially no need to be playing from the bottom of the ditch unless that is the only place the ball would remain at rest when placed.

Hmmm, I take it the relief area is within 1 club length ( or is it 2).
As it happens, the ditch is narrow , steepish sides, I.e a tall man could almost stride over it, so the bottom of the ditch would be within 1 club length , I reckon, certainly, 2 cl.
But I take your point which I shall bear in mind for larger ditches, which I shall be sure to find in future

 

[backwoodsman]

In this situation, after the ball was lost, can you choose to not drop within the penalty area or must you drop within 1 cl of where the last stroke was made?

If you can drop outside the PA, should you drop where the ball from shot 1 crossed the margin or where shot 2 crossed the margin?

If the shot from the PA ended up lost, you dont have to drop back in the PA - rule 17.2b allows you to drop outside the PA for a total of 2 penalty shots.

(probably easier for you to read the rule than me trying to explain it - but 1 penalty allows you to drop in the PA, then you have the option not to play it, and a further penalty allows you to drop outside the PA. But the rule allows you to to miss out the faffing around and do it in one go.)

 

[Steven Rules]

Hmmm, I take it the relief area is within 1 club length ( or is it 2).

The relief area when making a stroke from where the previous stroke was made is one club-length.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

If the shot from the PA ended up lost, you dont have to drop back in the PA - rule 17.2b allows you to drop outside the PA for a total of 2 penalty shots.

(probably easier for you to read the rule than me trying to explain it - but 1 penalty allows you to drop in the PA, then you have the option not to play it, and a further penalty allows you to drop outside the PA. But the rule allows you to to miss out the faffing around and do it in one go.)

Thanks . We faffed around, (mentally, - didn’t want to faff around in the ditch ), and came to the same result.

 

[jim8flog]

Sorry, don’t think so.
I played from the same place that I played the ‘lost’ ball from, so I incur only one penalty stroke.
Same as , e.g. shot 1 off a tee is lost , next shot from the tee is shot 3,
Shot 2 is the penalty shot, yes?

In my case, where I say shot 3, that is the ‘shots’ total so far. ( two actual hits and a penalty stroke).I have only at this point only actually hit two balls with my club. You will recall I didn’t hit ‘shot 4’, ; having “dropped” the next ball to be played which rolls to the bottom of the ditch.
To labour the point, there has been no third swing at a ball at this point.

Rulefan is saying, with what seems might well be the case, that I could have placed
the ball back at the top of the penalty area and played(again) from there.
Thus saving me having to incur a penalty stroke for taking relief from a penalty area.
We were under the impression that the new ball to be hit had to be dropped.

So, a wonderful 8 then

Thanks for the replies

My maths

Shot 1 Tee shot
Shot 2 Ball played and lost
Shot 3 Penalty shot for lost ball, next shot being dropped where shot 2 was hit from
Shot 4 Ball dropped where shot was played from. (not actually played)
Shot 5 Ball dropped outside outside of penalty area under penalty of one shot
Shot 6 Shot where ball was hit from after dropping it

 

[backwoodsman]

My maths

Shot 1 Tee shot
Shot 2 Ball played and lost
Shot 3 Penalty shot for lost ball, next shot being dropped where shot 2 was hit from
Shot 4 Ball dropped where shot was played from. (not actually played)
Shot 5 Ball dropped outside outside of penalty area under penalty of one shot
Shot 6 Shot where ball was hit from after dropping it

What you describe as 'Shot 4' isnt a shot though is it?

Shot 2 ended up lost , so player takes stroke & distance. So ball ends up dropped back where it was played from, in PA, under 1 stroke penalty. Had it then been played, it would have been the 4th shot. But wasnt played, and was dropped as 2nd penalty stroke (ie 4th shot) outside the PA. Then played towards green as 5th shot.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

What you describe as 'Shot 4' isnt a shot though is it?

Shot 2 ended up lost , so player takes stroke & distance. So ball ends up dropped back where it was played from, in PA, under 1 stroke penalty. Had it then been played, it would have been the 4th shot. But wasnt played, and was dropped as 2nd penalty stroke (ie 4th shot) outside the PA. Then played towards green as 5th shot.

Exactly!

 

[jim8flog]

Exactly!

What you describe as 'Shot 4' isnt a shot though is it?

Shot 2 ended up lost , so player takes stroke & distance. So ball ends up dropped back where it was played from, in PA, under 1 stroke penalty. Had it then been played, it would have been the 4th shot. But wasnt played, and was dropped as 2nd penalty stroke (ie 4th shot) outside the PA. Then played towards green as 5th shot.

Not sure I am getting my head around this so I will leave it there.

 

[rulie]

My maths

Shot 1 Tee shot
Shot 2 Ball played and lost
Shot 3 Penalty shot for lost ball, next shot being dropped where shot 2 was hit from
Shot 4 Ball dropped where shot was played from. (not actually played)
Shot 5 Ball dropped outside outside of penalty area under penalty of one shot
Shot 6 Shot where ball was hit from after dropping it

Here's what I see:
1 - tee shot
2- shot played from PA, ball lost
3 - penalty stroke (stroke and distance), ball dropped at spot where stroke 2 played
4 - penalty stroke (penalty area relief), ball dropped outside penalty area
5 - shot towards green after penalty area relief