Did he play the wrong ball.

[Kennysarmy]

Back to the OP.....not a Serious Breach and Rule 14.7b applies. Play dropped ball playing 3, add 2 shot penalty, ignore original and any shots played with it.

Still blob the hole and move on!!

I get play the dropped ball for 3 - but why then also add a 2 shot penalty? Is this because the original was found?

 

[chrisd]

I get play the dropped ball for 3 - but why then also add a 2 shot penalty? Is this because the original was found?

When I posted the same early on in the thread it was because I added a 2 shot penalty for playing the original ball, but ignoring the subsequent shots. I wasnt sure that the plan to play both balls was announced properly before the first shot with the original ball was made. I still dont know whether my 3 shot penalties was correct (had it been strokeplay)

 

[SammmeBee]

2 shots for playing from the Wrong Place....

 

[Rlburnside]

Come on Lincoln I’m intrigued what was the outcome of your discussions with your p/ps?

Your an experienced player and I’m struggling to understand what the confusion to a imo a simple ruleing is.

 

[Foxholer]

I'm afraid you are some months out of date. The Rule changed in January.
See https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-18#18-3a
Your clause above no longer applies

Thanks for that info - I too was unaware of it.

But wrt the case in question though, A) it wouldn't seem likely that player would return to tee a Provisional once they had begun the search (because of the 3 min restriction) and B) Playing a Provisional would SILL suggest that player thought ball was not 'lost in a Penalty Area' as playing a Provisional in that case is specifically excluded!

 

[rulefan]

Thanks for that info - I too was unaware of it.

But wrt the case in question though, A) it wouldn't seem likely that player would return to tee a Provisional once they had begun the search (because of the 3 min restriction) and B) Playing a Provisional would SILL suggest that player thought ball was not 'lost in a Penalty Area' as playing a Provisional in that case is specifically excluded!

I have no idea what was going through his mind. Not sure that anyone does.

 

[Rlburnside]

I think mentioning a provisional is a red herring, the players all agreed and were v/c the ball was in the hazard and the player continued under the rules.

Just because the original ball was found does not change this decision.

I should add he partly continued under the rules as I don't understand why he would continue playing his original ball.

 

[Swango1980]

2 shots for playing from the Wrong Place....

Why a 2 shot penalty for playing from the wrong place? The player was not aware of the rule, and so he proceeded with both balls so that the Committee could decide which one was applicable under the rules. This is allowed (as long as it's not Match Play). The Committee would then be able to tell him that it was the dropped ball that would have counted, not the original ball that he subsequently found on the other side of the penalty area. Note, this is quite common. The amount of times I've seen a player drop a ball thinking they'd gone in the water, only to find it had just got over. They then decide to cancel their dropped ball (which they've already played) and try to proceed with their original. And, I bet lots get away with it.

 

[Orikoru]

Apologies if I hadn’t been clearer earlier.

I wasn’t playing in the group. All I am going on is what I was told and I have got more details this evening. It’s the 1st time I have come across this but I can see how easily it happened

Par 4 8th hole. 290 yards with water (penalty area) across the fairway.

Player A plays tee shot. Hits it down the middle. Saturday was a murky day so they didn’t see the ball land. They thought the ball went in the penalty area so he didn’t play a provisional.

The group walked up and had a look in the water and couldn’t find the ball. For pace of play they got on with it very quick and he player A hit the ball within 1 min so didn’t spend any time looking for the ball as they all thought it was lost in the water and they certainly didn’t look the other side of the penalty area . Player A played the ball from the point where he thought the ball was in the penalty area as he would normally do.

They then walk over the bridge and player B goes to his ball and sees another ball in the rough the other side of the penalty area from the tee box so over the ditch. He then identified the ball as Player A tee shot.

Player A then played 2 balls for the remainder of the hole as no one in the group knew what to do. He also holed out.

Hope that clarifies any doubt. Like I say I wasn’t there but I heard about it after.

It was a stableford and for the record he didn’t score on the hole on either ball.

To my mind this is exactly how I understood it the first time anyway. So I would say exactly the same as I said in post #16:

"Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:
The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time"

 

[Orikoru]

Why a 2 shot penalty for playing from the wrong place? The player was not aware of the rule, and so he proceeded with both balls so that the Committee could decide which one was applicable under the rules. This is allowed (as long as it's not Match Play). The Committee would then be able to tell him that it was the dropped ball that would have counted, not the original ball that he subsequently found on the other side of the penalty area. Note, this is quite common. The amount of times I've seen a player drop a ball thinking they'd gone in the water, only to find it had just got over. They then decide to cancel their dropped ball (which they've already played) and try to proceed with their original. And, I bet lots get away with it.

Agree with this as well. Finishing the hole with both balls if you're not sure of a ruling is something we've been encouraged to do at my course in the past.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

It seems quite straightforward to me, he played his shot under penalty after he thought his ball was lost and this must be the ball in play, no provisional was mentioned , it's irrelevant if he found his original ball as it's to late then as he has already put another ball in play.

No, he didn't think his ball was "lost"- he ( and the others ) thought it was in the penalty area. The ditch.
If he had thought the ball was lost, he would have had to go back to the tee and play "3".

The question about VC is addressed by Duncan who rightly says that the players can determine that ,when they get to the ditch.
So a provisional can be played (obviously before they move off the tee)
delaying the final decision until they get to the ditch.( see later#)
So, The ditch can be bordered by fairway or very short rough only ,so that it must be obvious if the ball isn't on either of those ,it must be in the ditch. That is when VC is determined.
Then he drops the second ball under penalty.
If when they got to the ditch, those terrain conditions don't apply, I.e. long grass is around etc, then unless the ball was seen to go in, or a splash was seen, etc, then VC cannot be determined. So the provisional can be played
#However, If the nature of the hole is such that it is known to the players that there is not the possibility of short rough or fairway only around the ditch, then I would say it would be known on the tee by all players that VC could not be ascertained, so a provisional is advised. If not taken, then when at the ditch, if the ball isn't found in there (the PA),the player would have to go back to the tee..
.

 

[Colin L]

Regarding going back to play a provisional after searching a bit, the presumption seems to be that it is your tee shot you are looking for with maybe a 200 yard trek back to the tee, You might have hacked your teeshot or any subsequent shot a relatively short distance into some rubbish and decide after searching a minute or so to go back and play a provisional while other players continued to search in order to save time.