Did he play the wrong ball.

[chrisd]

I'm not sure I agree.

If it happened again I'm sure the player would argue that the ball may have rolled out of the hazard and may be lost in the rough....

If a player is going to say that the ball is definitely, or he's 95% certain that the ball is in the penalty area, then he can't play a provisional as you only play a provisional when you're uncertain where your ball is. If he plays a provisional and finds the ball in the PA then he can pick up the provisional and proceed according to the rules.

 

[doublebogey7]

I'm not sure I agree.

If it happened again I'm sure the player would argue that the ball may have rolled out of the hazard and may be lost in the rough....

We may be talking at cross purposes then, are you saying he should have taken a provisional from the tee? I had assumed tou meant declare s provisional.when dropping behind the PA.
If he had taken a provisionalnd not found the ball it would then have been difficult to argue that the ball was virtually certain to be in the PA.

 

[Kennysarmy]

We may be talking at cross purposes then, are you saying he should have taken a provisional from the tee? I had assumed tou meant declare s provisional.when dropping behind the PA.
If he had taken a provisionalnd not found the ball it would then have been difficult to argue that the ball was virtually certain to be in the PA.

Yes, I'm saying if it happens again the OP would probably take a provisional from the tee

He's now got good grounds to argue any shots off that tee heading towards the penalty area may not end up lying with in it !

Interesting situation.

 

[Orikoru]

It appears he played under the 95% certainty rule - 1 shot penalty

He then played a wrong ball (his original) which, I guess is the general penalty no matter how many times he hit it - 2 shot penalty

So 3 penalty shots - but I bet I'm wrong 😣

I thought the OP meant he had finished the hole with both balls in order to get a ruling later on which was the correct one.

 

[chrisd]

I thought the OP meant he had finished the hole with both balls in order to get a ruling later on which was the correct one.

He said that later but Lincolns early posts said he played a wrong ball, also I believe he has to declare which ball he wishes to count - there was no mention of that either

 

[DickInShorts]

I'm not sure I agree.

If it happened again I'm sure the player would argue that the ball may have rolled out of the hazard and may be lost in the rough....

But then he would have played the second ball from a wrong place - he should have gone back to where he last played from for a lost ball.
I agree that the first ball is out of play and the second ball is in play with a one shot penalty for the drop from the Penalty Area where it was lost - they were all certain or virtually certain the ball had gone into the PA - and as stated above once that ball( the dropped one) was in play the original ball was no longer of any stand8ng in the hole and could be pocketed for use at another time

 

[duncan mackie]

Interestingly I have had 3 different qualified referees give me a different ruling so far.

Then again there are at least 3 interpretations that could be put on the first posted information, so that no surprise at all!

I will add another....

Was it match play or a stroke play format being played?

If it was match play then if everyone agreed the ball was in the penalty area, and the players drop was appropriate, then that ball is his ball in play. The subsequent stroke at his original ball will now lose him the hole.
Stroke play and it would be up to the committee, and only the committee, to rule on whether there was VC on the original ball (based on what has been posted I would expect them to say there was) and that the player's score with that ball should count.

 

[backwoodsman]

My view is that given the original ball was found (seemingly fairly easily) in rough near the ditch, then even though all players (3? 4?) "thought" the ball had gone in the ditch, I dont think there was anything like 95% certainty that the ball had in fact gone in. Sounds like there was plenty of scope for the ball not to be in it. So a provisional off the tee would have been in order

I think he should have played a provisional from the tee and then gone forward. But he didnt. When the original was not (initially) found he should have gone back to the tee. Dropping and playing near the ditch was putting a ball in play from a wrong place. Given that it was a full stroke's distance forward of where it should have been played from, that seems to be a serious breach. And it rendered the original lost before it was subsequently located. So playing that was playing a wrong ball..

Dont think OP said what format was being played.? A serious breach of playing from wrong place in strokeplay is DQ if not corrected - which it sounds like it wasn't. Stableford DQ for hole, and matchplay loss of hole. Strokes made at the wrong (ie located original) ball would be irrelevant unless the drop by the ditch was not considered to be serious breach of wrong place. But I'm letting myself of the hook on that one

I now sit back to watch the experts pull my ponderings to shreds ...

Edit: and partly shot down by Duncan even before I'd finished typing.

 

[rulefan]

Assuming strokeplay, when he found the original and before he made another stroke he was entitled to proceed under 20.1c(3), playing two balls
Did the player announce which ball was to count? Did he report the facts to the Committee after the round?

But where did he play the second ball from originally?

 

[Orikoru]

My view is that given the original ball was found (seemingly fairly easily) in rough near the ditch, then even though all players (3? 4?) "thought" the ball had gone in the ditch, I dont think there was anything like 95% certainty that the ball had in fact gone in. Sounds like there was plenty of scope for the ball not to be in it. So a provisional off the tee would have been in order

I think he should have played a provisional from the tee and then gone forward. But he didnt. When the original was not (initially) found he should have gone back to the tee. Dropping and playing near the ditch was putting a ball in play from a wrong place. Given that it was a full stroke's distance forward of where it should have been played from, that seems to be a serious breach. And it rendered the original lost before it was subsequently located. So playing that was playing a wrong ball..

Dont think OP said what format was being played.? A serious breach of playing from wrong place in strokeplay is DQ if not corrected - which it sounds like it wasn't. Stableford DQ for hole, and matchplay loss of hole. Strokes made at the wrong (ie located original) ball would be irrelevant unless the drop by the ditch was not considered to be serious breach of wrong place. But I'm letting myself of the hook on that one

I now sit back to watch the experts pull my ponderings to shreds ...

Edit: and partly shot down by Duncan even before I'd finished typing.

In my experience, 'virtually certain' doesn't really have quantifiable meaning in that rule. Having not found the ball, the other players will just say "well it must be in the ditch then" and agree they're virtually certain to save their mate a long walk.

 

[rulie]

Whether it was "known or virtually certain" isn't based on the opinions of the other players or on a vote by the other players, it's based on the facts and information available at the conclusion of the three minute search time.
For reference, the definition of known or virtually certain is shown below,
Known or Virtually Certain

The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.

Known or virtually certain means more than just possible or probable. It means that either:

• There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to the player’s ball, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen, or
• Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened.
  

“All reasonably available information” includes all information the player knows and all other information he or she can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonable delay.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Whether it was "known or virtually certain" isn't based on the opinions of the other players or on a vote by the other players, it's based on the facts and information available at the conclusion of the three minute search time.
For reference, the definition of known or virtually certain is shown below,
Known or Virtually Certain

The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.

Known or virtually certain means more than just possible or probable. It means that either:

• There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to the player’s ball, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen, or
• Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened.

“All reasonably available information” includes all information the player knows and all other information he or she can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonable delay.

Indeed - and so 'it was heading towards the ditch' DNQ as KoVC...

 

[Orikoru]

Whether it was "known or virtually certain" isn't based on the opinions of the other players or on a vote by the other players, it's based on the facts and information available at the conclusion of the three minute search time.
For reference, the definition of known or virtually certain is shown below,
Known or Virtually Certain

The standard for deciding what happened to a player’s ball – for example, whether the ball came to rest in a penalty area, whether it moved or what caused it to move.

Known or virtually certain means more than just possible or probable. It means that either:

• There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to the player’s ball, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen, or
• Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened.

“All reasonably available information” includes all information the player knows and all other information he or she can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonable delay.

That's all well and good but like I said, what usually happens in the weekend four ball is everyone says "well we've not found it so it's probably in the ditch - go ahead and take a drop outside it". Nobody states that they are 95% sure or 'virtually certain', just as nobody ever says "I'm only 80% certain - off you go back to the tee".

 

[chrisd]

That's all well and good but like I said, what usually happens in the weekend four ball is everyone says "well we've not found it so it's probably in the ditch - go ahead and take a drop outside it". Nobody states that they are 95% sure or 'virtually certain', just as nobody ever says "I'm only 80% certain - off you go back to the tee".

My course has a number of holes where the red stakes encompass a water course but also trees, bushes etc - do you think its ok to assume a ball going towards such penalty area is in the hazard if it's not found?

 

[duncan mackie]

That's all well and good but like I said, what usually happens in the weekend four ball is everyone says "well we've not found it so it's probably in the ditch - go ahead and take a drop outside it". Nobody states that they are 95% sure or 'virtually certain', just as nobody ever says "I'm only 80% certain - off you go back to the tee".

Much easier to look at it the other way round (and here I don't like Rulie's reference to at conclusion of the 3min) and consider whether the ball could be anywhere else....the longer and harder a player is looking outside the believed area the greater this possibility becomes; and very quickly it becomes clear that a players stated view that (here) it's in the bottom of the ditch isn't reflected in his anxious searching of all and every other possibility!
There is of course a very strong argument that, in the absence of knowledge, the very existence of reasonable alternatives that could be hiding the ball rule out virtual certainty.

I'm not disagreeing with you over what does happen in many games - but I know it doesn't happen in all!

 

[Orikoru]

My course has a number of holes where the red stakes encompass a water course but also trees, bushes etc - do you think its ok to assume a ball going towards such penalty area is in the hazard if it's not found?

I don't know if it's ok or not but plenty of people would agree that. Don't you think? Would depend on the shot of course and you'd judge it based on its velocity as well, assuming anyone was watching.

Much easier to look at it the other way round (and here I don't like Rulie's reference to at conclusion of the 3min) and consider whether the ball could be anywhere else....the longer and harder a player is looking outside the believed area the greater this possibility becomes; and very quickly it becomes clear that a players stated view that (here) it's in the bottom of the ditch isn't reflected in his anxious searching of all and every other possibility!
There is of course a very strong argument that, in the absence of knowledge, the very existence of reasonable alternatives that could be hiding the ball rule out virtual certainty.

I'm not disagreeing with you over what does happen in many games - but I know it doesn't happen in all!

I can't really claim to know what happens on courses across the land, that's why I just said in my experience. If the ball was heading towards the ditch and you're watching that from 200 yards away you can't always be certain that's where it went until you've had a good look round. Having not found the ball outside the ditch people are usually then happy to say that it must be in there. I think part of that is very much not wanting to send a man back to the tee and giving him an 'out' instead. For pace of play as well as camaraderie.

 

[duncan mackie]

I can't really claim to know what happens on courses across the land, that's why I just said in my experience. If the ball was heading towards the ditch and you're watching that from 200 yards away you can't always be certain that's where it went until you've had a good look round. Having not found the ball outside the ditch people are usually then happy to say that it must be in there. I think part of that is very much not wanting to send a man back to the tee and giving him an 'out' instead. For pace of play as well as camaraderie.

Much better to get him to hit a provisional from the tee in the sort of situation you have outlined...if you anticipate requiring a good look around in case it's not in the ditch then you simply aren't going to sufficiently establish it is, such that the player can proceed on the basis that it was.
This doesnt rule out subsequently establishing VC if, when you get down towards the ditch there's no hiding places and the ball isn't sitting on the fairway before, or after, the ditch and it becomes a realistic working assumption based on 'it can't be anywhere else'.
Courses can create big problems here when they let stuff grow around the perimeter of such areas, but not within the marked penalty area. Generally such situations will require you to find the ball in the penalty area to proceed with anything other than a reload.

 

[Colin L]

It's a lot more complicated.
1) Where did he drop the 2nd ball? He may well have played from the wrong place. Possible serious breach. He played from the point where he thought it went in and carried on under penalty.
2) When he played the fist ball again after the substitution, that would be a wrong ball.
3) How many times did he play both balls? he played both balls and holed out with both balls letting his playing partners know so they could sort it out afterwards.

Interestingly I have had 3 different qualified referees give me a different ruling so far.

Given that we don't have adequate information as yet, I'm surprised any of them was prepared to give a ruling!

The players "thought" the ball had gone into the ditch. What level of certainty was there that it had? Was there a possibility that the ball was hidden elsewhere and they were all mistaken?
If he did have virtual certainty his ball was in the ditch, knowing where he substituted the other ball is essential to deciding if he played from a correct place. If he played from a place allowed in taking relief from a penalty area, subsequently finding his original ball is irrelevant: it is not in play and so is a wrong ball.
If he did not have virtual certainty, his substituted ball was in play and by playing his original when found, he played a wrong ball.

 

[chrisd]

I don't know if it's ok or not but plenty of people would agree that. Don't you think? Would depend on the shot of course and you'd judge it based on its velocity as well, assuming anyone was watching.

In comps we apply the 95% condition, can you be sure that it didnt hit a tree etc etc, in bounce games we tend to do the same as most others

 

[Orikoru]

Much better to get him to hit a provisional from the tee in the sort of situation you have outlined...if you anticipate requiring a good look around in case it's not in the ditch then you simply aren't going to sufficiently establish it is, such that the player can proceed on the basis that it was.
This doesnt rule out subsequently establishing VC if, when you get down towards the ditch there's no hiding places and the ball isn't sitting on the fairway before, or after, the ditch and it becomes a realistic working assumption based on 'it can't be anywhere else'.
Courses can create big problems here when they let stuff grow around the perimeter of such areas, but not within the marked penalty area. Generally such situations will require you to find the ball in the penalty area to proceed with anything other than a reload.

I don't disagree with you that it's always worth hitting a provisional. But to be totally honest I can recall more than one occasion where a player is about to play a provisional, and another player has said "there's a ditch down there, so if we can't find it you can take a drop" or words to that implication, and the chap has said ok and put his provisional ball away.