Did he play the wrong ball.

[rulie]

Much easier to look at it the other way round (and here I don't like Rulie's reference to at conclusion of the 3min) and consider whether the ball could be anywhere else....the longer and harder a player is looking outside the believed area the greater this possibility becomes; and very quickly it becomes clear that a players stated view that (here) it's in the bottom of the ditch isn't reflected in his anxious searching of all and every other possibility!
There is of course a very strong argument that, in the absence of knowledge, the very existence of reasonable alternatives that could be hiding the ball rule out virtual certainty.

I'm not disagreeing with you over what does happen in many games - but I know it doesn't happen in all!

Duncan, see Interpretation below:
Known or Virtually Certain/2 – Virtual Certainty Is Irrelevant if It Comes to Light After Three-Minute Search Expires

Determining whether there is knowledge or virtual certainty must be based on evidence known to the player at the time the three-minute search time expires.

Examples of when the player’s later findings are irrelevant include when:

• A player’s tee shot comes to rest in an area containing heavy rough and a large animal hole. After a three-minute search, it is determined that it is not known or virtually certain that the ball is in the animal hole. As the player returns to the teeing area, the ball is found in the animal hole.
  
  Even though the player has not yet put another ball in play, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief for a lost ball (Rule 18.2b – What to Do When Ball is Lost or Out of Bounds) since it was not known or virtually certain that the ball was in the animal hole, when the search time expired.
• A player cannot find his or her ball and believes it may have been picked up by a spectator (outside influence), but there is not enough evidence to be virtually certain of this. A short time after the three-minute search time expires, a spectator is found to have the player’s ball.
  
  The player must take stroke-and-distance relief for a lost ball (Rule 18.2b) since the movement by the outside influence only became known after the search time expired.

 

[rulefan]

Given that we don't have adequate information as yet, I'm surprised any of them was prepared to give a ruling!

I agree and am surprised any one feels able to give an authoritative ruling.

 

[Foxholer]

All of this would have become academic if he'd played a provisional, gives me something to think about, if I don't see the ball actually go in and or make a splash, why not take a provisional?

I agree. However, playing a provisional in these circumstances DOES have consequences... By doing so, the player indicates sufficient doubt, imo, that it's 'lost in the PA' to preclude deciding that's the case when it's unable to be found, so Provisional becomes the ball in play.

 

[duncan mackie]

I don't disagree with you that it's always worth hitting a provisional. But to be totally honest I can recall more than one occasion where a player is about to play a provisional, and another player has said "there's a ditch down there, so if we can't find it you can take a drop" or words to that implication, and the chap has said ok and put his provisional ball away.

They may well have said that, and in the particular circumstances they did it's possible that they were correct; it's also possible they were wrong.
That they said it doesn't make it correct.

 

[rulefan]

I agree. However, playing a provisional in these circumstances DOES have consequences... By doing so, the player indicates sufficient doubt, imo, that it's 'lost in the PA' to preclude deciding that's the case when it's unable to be found, so Provisional becomes the ball in play.

Would it not depend upon where he was when he decided to play a provisional?

 

[duncan mackie]

I agree. However, playing a provisional in these circumstances DOES have consequences... By doing so, the player indicates sufficient doubt, imo, that it's 'lost in the PA' to preclude deciding that's the case when it's unable to be found, so Provisional becomes the ball in play.

Nope.
It reflects the situation as perceived at the time the provisional was played.
If the situation is different when they get there things can change.
I agree it strongly suggests, but it doesn't preclude.

 

[duncan mackie]

Duncan, see Interpretation below:
Known or Virtually Certain/2 – Virtual Certainty Is Irrelevant if It Comes to Light After Three-Minute Search Expires

Determining whether there is knowledge or virtual certainty must be based on evidence known to the player at the time the three-minute search time expires.

Examples of when the player’s later findings are irrelevant include when:

• A player’s tee shot comes to rest in an area containing heavy rough and a large animal hole. After a three-minute search, it is determined that it is not known or virtually certain that the ball is in the animal hole. As the player returns to the teeing area, the ball is found in the animal hole.
  
  Even though the player has not yet put another ball in play, the player must take stroke-and-distance relief for a lost ball (Rule 18.2b – What to Do When Ball is Lost or Out of Bounds) since it was not known or virtually certain that the ball was in the animal hole, when the search time expired.
• A player cannot find his or her ball and believes it may have been picked up by a spectator (outside influence), but there is not enough evidence to be virtually certain of this. A short time after the three-minute search time expires, a spectator is found to have the player’s ball.
  
  The player must take stroke-and-distance relief for a lost ball (Rule 18.2b) since the movement by the outside influence only became known after the search time expired.

All that does is rule out new evidence after the 3min has elapsed and, by definition, the ball is lost.
VC can be established at any time prior to that.

 

[Foxholer]

Would it not depend upon where he was when he decided to play a provisional?

Why? There are limits on where he can play a provisional from - basically, the original place.

 

[upsidedown]

Tricky little hole that 8th . In the English Seniors Final the guy whose card I was marking had to play 2 balls as he was uncertain of a ruling. Once we clarified with a ref I was able to mark him down for a blob . It didn't matter in the long run as he did rather well .

 

[Deleted member 17920]

Apologies if I hadn’t been clearer earlier.

I wasn’t playing in the group. All I am going on is what I was told and I have got more details this evening. It’s the 1st time I have come across this but I can see how easily it happened

Par 4 8th hole. 290 yards with water (penalty area) across the fairway.

Player A plays tee shot. Hits it down the middle. Saturday was a murky day so they didn’t see the ball land. They thought the ball went in the penalty area so he didn’t play a provisional.

The group walked up and had a look in the water and couldn’t find the ball. For pace of play they got on with it very quick and he player A hit the ball within 1 min so didn’t spend any time looking for the ball as they all thought it was lost in the water and they certainly didn’t look the other side of the penalty area . Player A played the ball from the point where he thought the ball was in the penalty area as he would normally do.

They then walk over the bridge and player B goes to his ball and sees another ball in the rough the other side of the penalty area from the tee box so over the ditch. He then identified the ball as Player A tee shot.

Player A then played 2 balls for the remainder of the hole as no one in the group knew what to do. He also holed out.

Hope that clarifies any doubt. Like I say I wasn’t there but I heard about it after.

It was a stableford and for the record he didn’t score on the hole on either ball.

 

[rulefan]

Why? There are limits on where he can play a provisional from - basically, the original place.

But he could have made his decision when he was anywhere.

 

[Foxholer]

But he could have made his decision when he was anywhere.

I don't understand what you mean! Please explain.

 

[Rlburnside]

It seems quite straightforward to me, he played his shot under penalty after he thought his ball was lost and this must be the ball in play, no provisional was mentioned , it's irrelevant if he found his original ball as it's to late then as he has already put another ball in play.

 

[Kennysarmy]

But he could have made his decision when he was anywhere.

Don't think that's correct.

You can't hit a ball 280 yards slightly in the trees, walk all the way to look for it then after 2 minutes decide to go back and play a provisional.

Within a reasonable distance of your original shot I believe you have to play a provisional, ie, gives you leeway to advance forward to your bag and get another ball or club to replay the shot.

Make sense?

 

[SammmeBee]

Don't think that's correct.

You can't hit a ball 280 yards slightly in the trees, walk all the way to look for it then after 2 minutes decide to go back and play a provisional.

Within a reasonable distance of your original shot I believe you have to play a provisional, ie, gives you leeway to advance forward to your bag and get another ball or club to replay the shot.

Make sense?

Er......you can within the 3 mins....

 

[Kennysarmy]

Er......you can within the 3 mins....

Er....yes......if you stand where you originally were lol

Golf Rules Explained: Provisional Ball (Rule 27-2)

The provisional ball Rule is one of the most useful Rules in the book. If, after playing a shot, you think your ball may be lost (outside a water hazard) or out of bounds you should play a provisional ball. The purpose of the Rule is to save time, hence the player must inform his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he goes forward to search for the original ball.


Read more at https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/vide...xplained-provisional-ball#1MlSkGQHD7LS7f5E.99

 

[SammmeBee]

Could you find me Rule 27-2 in the NEW book of the Rules of Golf please......

 

[rulefan]

Er....yes......if you stand where you originally were lol

Golf Rules Explained: Provisional Ball (Rule 27-2)

The provisional ball Rule is one of the most useful Rules in the book. If, after playing a shot, you think your ball may be lost (outside a water hazard) or out of bounds you should play a provisional ball. The purpose of the Rule is to save time, hence the player must inform his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he goes forward to search for the original ball.

I'm afraid you are some months out of date. The Rule changed in January.
See https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-18#18-3a
Your clause above no longer applies

 

[SammmeBee]

Back to the OP.....not a Serious Breach and Rule 14.7b applies. Play dropped ball playing 3, add 2 shot penalty, ignore original and any shots played with it.

Still blob the hole and move on!!

 

[Kennysarmy]

I'm afraid you are some months out of date. The Rule changed in January.
See https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/rules/the-rules-of-golf/rule-18#18-3a
Your clause above no longer applies

Ah - cheers!

Found this:

Provisional ball (Rule 18)
Previously, a provisional ball could only be played before the player walked down the fairway to look for his first ball (however, going forward as far as 50 yards (45 meters) was allowed).

Now, you can also play a provisional ball after you have already looked for your original ball for a while.

Good to know: Now that the search time has been reduced to three minutes, it will be virtually impossible to play a provisional ball after you have already searched for a while. Because, after the three minutes have expired, it is no longer a provisional ball but it automatically becomes the new ball in play.