Did he play the wrong ball.

[Deleted member 17920]

Here is an odd one I haven't had before.

Player A at the weekend on the 8th on the Bracken, hits the tee shot and all players thought it went in the ditch across the fairway, walks up looks in ditch and then cant find it so hits another towards the green, they then all walk round the ditch and the original ball wasn't in the ditch it was in the rough over the ditch,

Player A then played both balls.

Thoughts on what ball was in play and was any penalties applied.

We had some discussion on this.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is it a par 3? Did he play the second ball from the tee? Did he declare the second ball as a provisional?

 

[Orikoru]

Here is an odd one I haven't had before.

Player A at the weekend on the 8th on the Bracken, hits the tee shot and all players thought it went in the ditch across the fairway, walks up looks in ditch and then cant find it so hits another towards the green, they then all walk round the ditch and the original ball wasn't in the ditch it was in the rough over the ditch,

Player A then played both balls.

Thoughts on what ball was in play and was any penalties applied.

We had some discussion on this.

Where from? As in he took a drop before the ditch? If so I think that means it's the new ball in play, irrespective of him finding the original ball afterwards. As he ended his search for that ball and put a new one in play?

 

[Deleted member 17920]

Par 4 and no he didn't play another one from the tee.

 

[Slab]

Neither ball was in play, no penalties, it was just a practice round and Player A was the only player... what do I win

 

[Kennysarmy]

Here is an odd one I haven't had before.

Player A at the weekend on the 8th on the Bracken, hits the tee shot and all players thought it went in the ditch across the fairway, walks up looks in ditch and then cant find it so hits another towards the green, they then all walk round the ditch and the original ball wasn't in the ditch it was in the rough over the ditch,

Player A then played both balls.

Thoughts on what ball was in play and was any penalties applied.

We had some discussion on this.

Not sure but unless he declared the dropped ball a provisional I'd say that was the ball in play and the original ball though found should have been declared lost.

If he'd dropped it declaring it a provisional just in case the ball was found over the ditch then he'd have been OK.

But wait to enlightened.

 

[chrisd]

Not sure but unless he declared the dropped ball a provisional I'd say that was the ball in play and the original ball though found should have been declared lost.

If he'd dropped it declaring it a provisional just in case the ball was found over the ditch then he'd have been OK.

But wait to enlightened.

No, he cant just drop a ball and declare it a provisional, he needed to do that from where he last played.

 

[louise_a]

As all the players agreed it went in the ditch, then I would say that is virtually certain, therefore if he played a 2nd ball under a one shot penalty (ball lost in penalty area) then that ball would be the ball in play, regardless of whether he subsequently found the original.

 

[louise_a]

for further clarification rule 17.1c

 

[Slab]

for further clarification rule 17.1c

How do we know from the OP the this 'ditch' is a penalty area?

 

[Deleted member 17920]

How do we know from the OP the this 'ditch' is a penalty area?

Ah sorry it is a penalty area.

No one has got to the conclusion we did yet though

 

[rulefan]

It's a lot more complicated.
1) Where did he drop the 2nd ball? He may well have played from the wrong place. Possible serious breach.
2) When he played the fist ball again after the substitution, that would be a wrong ball.
3) How many times did he play both balls?

 

[williamalex1]

IMO, once he hits the ball he dropped that would be the ball in play. Rule 6-3c would apply so DQ if he didn't correct his mistake.
Unless after finding his 1st he declared he was going to complete the hole using both balls under the old rule 3-3 [ can't find new rule number ] and ask the committee to rule after the round.

 

[Deleted member 17920]

It's a lot more complicated.
1) Where did he drop the 2nd ball? He may well have played from the wrong place. Possible serious breach. He played from the point where he thought it went in and carried on under penalty.
2) When he played the fist ball again after the substitution, that would be a wrong ball.
3) How many times did he play both balls? he played both balls and holed out with both balls letting his playing partners know so they could sort it out afterwards.

Interestingly I have had 3 different qualified referees give me a different ruling so far.

 

[Kennysarmy]

No, he cant just drop a ball and declare it a provisional, he needed to do that from where he last played.

Understood.

If everyone agreed that it went in the ditch then he was correct to drop and play under penalty.

Then it seems to me that at that point the original ball was deemed to be lost and it's just unfortunate that it was then later found (presumably still within the 3 minutes search time)

Was the onus not on the player to carry out a comprehensive search of the area and by dropping the second ball was deeming the original "lost"?

 

[Orikoru]

Understood.

If everyone agreed that it went in the ditch then he was correct to drop and play under penalty.

Then it seems to me that at that point the original ball was deemed to be lost and it's just unfortunate that it was then later found (presumably still within the 3 minutes search time)

Was the onus not on the player to carry out a comprehensive search of the area and by dropping the second ball was deeming the original "lost"?

Yeah, I would say that once the players agree that they're virtually certain the ball was in the ditch, he ends the search by proceeding under that judgement and dropping his ball before the ditch. Finding the first ball after he's played the new one is just bad luck for him, as you say. He's already proceeded under 17.1c.

Relief for Ball Not Found but in Penalty Area
If a player’s ball has not been found and it is known or virtually certain that the ball came to rest in a penalty area:

The player may take penalty relief under Rule 17.1d or 17.2.
Once the player puts another ball in play to take relief in this way:
The original ball is no longer in play and must not be played.
This is true even if it is then found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).

 

[Kennysarmy]

All of this would have become academic if he'd played a provisional, gives me something to think about, if I don't see the ball actually go in and or make a splash, why not take a provisional?

 

[chrisd]

It's a lot more complicated.
1) Where did he drop the 2nd ball? He may well have played from the wrong place. Possible serious breach. He played from the point where he thought it went in and carried on under penalty.
2) When he played the fist ball again after the substitution, that would be a wrong ball.
3) How many times did he play both balls? he played both balls and holed out with both balls letting his playing partners know so they could sort it out afterwards.

Interestingly I have had 3 different qualified referees give me a different ruling so far.

It appears he played under the 95% certainty rule - 1 shot penalty

He then played a wrong ball (his original) which, I guess is the general penalty no matter how many times he hit it - 2 shot penalty

So 3 penalty shots - but I bet I'm wrong 😣

 

[doublebogey7]

All of this would have become academic if he'd played a provisional, gives me something to think about, if I don't see the ball actually go in and or make a splash, why not take a provisional?

You cannot play a provisional in these circumstances.

Assuming that the player was 95% certain that the ball was in the PA, then once he has put another ball in play by dropping a ball in the correct place, then he must continue with that ball. The ball found beyond the PA is then a wrong ball. However as he was unsure how to proceed he was entitled to play the hole out with both balls and seek a ruling on which ball to count at the end of his round.

 

[Kennysarmy]

You cannot play a provisional in these circumstances.

Assuming that the player was 95% certain that the ball was in the PA, then once he has put another ball in play by dropping a ball in the correct place, then he must continue with that ball. The ball found beyond the PA is then a wrong ball. However as he was unsure how to proceed he was entitled to play the hole out with both balls and seek a ruling on which ball to count at the end of his round.

I'm not sure I agree.

If it happened again I'm sure the player would argue that the ball may have rolled out of the hazard and may be lost in the rough....