CSS & while I'm asking.... slope

[Whereditgo]

How is CSS calculated? Is it as simple as taking the mean of all Nett scores on the day? Not sure that would work now I think about it

While playing in Denmark and Sweden a couple of weeks back, I noticed that all the courses used the slope to calculate the strokes you get. The pro asks for your handicap when you sign in and they print out a card for you with the strokes received next to each hole on the card. I don't remember seeing the slope on a card, or anywhere else in the UK?

We played a Ryder cup format and the course we played on for the singles was a slope 147 (iirc), I was too embarrassed to take the 30 strokes on the card and played off my flat handicap, still won 4 & 2 mind

 

[HRC99]

It is a seriously complex calculation and one that you'd need access to all the scores to work out. It's pretty much all done by computer.

This is from the CONGU website:

Q.2 How is the Competition Scratch Score (CSS) calculated?

A.2 The CSS table as contained in Appendix B of the System is based on the known performance of golfers of different abilities (Handicap Categories) in a range of golfing conditions. In normal playing conditions, for example, 37-68% of participating Category 1 players are expected to return Nett scores to the SSS +2 or better.
In contrast, in the same conditions only 16-30% of Category 3 players are expected to return Nett scores to SSS +2 or better. In competition situations when course conditions are more or less favourable than normal these percentages will increase or decrease respectively, resulting in movement of the SSS as expressed by the CSS.

The mechanics of the CSS calculation are:
* Establish the composition of the field as a percentage of each handicap category excluding category 4 for men or category 5 for ladies. e.g. 10% Cat.1 50% Cat.2 40% Cat3[[+ Cat. 4 for Ladies]
* Establish the percentage of the field (Cat.1 + Cat.2 + Cat.3 [+ Cat.4]) with a Nett score of the SSS +2 or better e.g. 20%
* Refer to Appendix B Competition Scratch Score Table
* Using this example the CSS would be the SSS +1.

Slope is the difficulty rating used primarily in the US. You won't see it over here.

 

[Imurg]

I still hate CSS.
Who cares if the course is playing easy - more people get cut! If its playing hard then more people go up. Where's the problem?
We've already had the courses rated by SSS. Why do it again?
I just think it complicates things - an extra layer of administration.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I still hate CSS.
Who cares if the course is playing easy - more people get cut! If its playing hard then more people go up. Where's the problem?
We've already had the courses rated by SSS. Why do it again?
I just think it complicates things - an extra layer of administration.

Agreed

 

[Imurg]

I still hate CSS.
Who cares if the course is playing easy - more people get cut! If its playing hard then more people go up. Where's the problem?
We've already had the courses rated by SSS. Why do it again?
I just think it complicates things - an extra layer of administration.

Agreed

Cheers Bud.


Still hate you though.....

 

[Swinger]

I still hate CSS.
Who cares if the course is playing easy - more people get cut! If its playing hard then more people go up. Where's the problem?
We've already had the courses rated by SSS. Why do it again?
I just think it complicates things - an extra layer of administration.

I think you'd upset nearly every cat 1 player in the field.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

You need to learn to draw the ball to eek out those few extra yards

 

[Imurg]

Don't you mean hook it less????

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Don't you mean hook it less????

Yes, sadly I do

 

[PeteC]

The CSS (Competition Standard Scratch) is a varient of the standard scratch for the course and it is based on a computation using the scores achieved on that particular day/in that competition. The reason it is used is that if it's a fantastic, calm, sunny day (ie not normal) and everyone is ripping up the course it would be wrong to cut players handicaps because it is not normal course conditions (and vice versa).

The 'Slope Rating' is a USPGA invention which seeks to level the playing field for 'bogey' golfers. The USPGA have Course Rating which is what a scratch handicapper 'should' go round the course in (ie the equivalent of our SSS) then they have a separate team which look at the course from the eyes of a 'bogey' player (18 handicapper I think). This team may look at a Par 4 and say an 18 handicapper can't play this as a Par4 because there is a lake in front of the green which means you have to drive 250 yards off the tee to give you a chance of attacking the green (which an 18 handicapper is not deemed to be able to do). So for the 18 handicapper this is really a Par 5. So having taken all this into consideration they award the course a Slope Rating which is then used to alter a Playing Handicap for this course. A Slope rating of 113 is 'neutral' ie your Playing Handicap for this course is the same as your Handicap. More than 113 and you get extra Handicap. Less than 113 and you get a reduced handicap (the actual calculation is [(Handicap / 113) * Slope rating)]

As an aside there are courses in the US which have a Slope Rating of 155 meaning that if you are normally an 18 handicapper, for that course, you would play off 25 (now that must be a tough course....)

 

[Whereditgo]

Thanks for the replies guys, interesting stuff.

Feel pretty chuffed to have scored 36 points off my normal handicap on that course now!

 

[Fyldewhite]

I still hate CSS.
Who cares if the course is playing easy - more people get cut! If its playing hard then more people go up. Where's the problem?
We've already had the courses rated by SSS. Why do it again?
I just think it complicates things - an extra layer of administration.

Rubbish.
Q. Why doesn't the system just use Par?
A. Because it isn't fair course to course.

Q. Why not just use SSS?
A. Because it isn't fair day to day on same course.

All worked out by computer, no extra "administration" at all. Cannot for the life of me see why CSS would cause anyone an issue. It's just common sense.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I still hate CSS.
Who cares if the course is playing easy - more people get cut! If its playing hard then more people go up. Where's the problem?
We've already had the courses rated by SSS. Why do it again?
I just think it complicates things - an extra layer of administration.

Rubbish.
Q. Why doesn't the system just use Par?
A. Because it isn't fair course to course.

Q. Why not just use SSS?
A. Because it isn't fair day to day on same course.

All worked out by computer, no extra "administration" at all. Cannot for the life of me see why CSS would cause anyone an issue. It's just common sense.

I agree with Imurg in that I don't see the point of it. I have no issue with it, I just don't see the point of it.

If you ask me, CSS is not dictated by the difficulty of the course on a particular day but more by the inconsistencies of the handicap golfer.

Lets say you have a perfect day, no wind, no rain, 18 deg C, running fairways and receptive greens. Ideal conditions for playing well, but you still have to bring your game to the course, as does everyone else. But it's not a foregone conclusion that they will and there is no guarantee what the CSS will be. On our course you would expect it to be 70 if eveyone played well in good conditions but I wouldn't guarantee it because, as I said, CSS is not dictated by the difficulty of the course on a particular day.

Our club championship is played over 2 days, last year conditions on both days were identical, very little wind, warm with sunny spells. CSS was 71 on Saturday and 72 on Sunday, same players, same golf course, same conditions - you tell me how it makes sense that a category 2 player shooting 2 below SSS gets cut 0.4 on Saturday but someone else doing the same gets cut 0.6 on Sunday. It had nothing to do with the difficulty of the course or conditions but everything to do with the fact the we are, by nature as amateur golfers, inconsistent.

I understand that there are extreme conditions that make scoring difficult and these may be more common in other areas of the UK but down our way it is very rare to experience conditions so bad that I come off the course feeling as though I scored badly due to the weather, sure it gives me an excuse but 99 times out a 100, it isn't the reason.

It's because of this that I don't see why my or anyone else's handicap should be affected, positively or negatively, because more people happen to play well or badly on a particular day.

 

[RGDave]

We need a course slope rating at my home course.

http://golf.about.com/cs/rulesofgolf/a/hfaq_sloperate.htm

The problem with mine is that it's easy for the scratch player and difficult for the "bogey" golfer.

Anyone playing to "par" should NOT play off scratch, and that's taken care of by the CSS generally being 2 under par; hence if you play to 0 (gross) every week, you'll play off 2 (approx)

However, anyone managing to average 18 over par should be off less than 18 in my book.

I wish I knew that answer.

 

[Ethan]

Anyone playing to "par" should NOT play off scratch, and that's taken care of by the CSS generally being 2 under par; hence if you play to 0 (gross) every week, you'll play off 2 (approx)

However, anyone managing to average 18 over par should be off less than 18 in my book.

I wish I knew that answer.

Actually those maths are not quite accurate. The handicap is not based on average score, but is assymetrical. Scores lower than CSS lower handicap more than scores above increase it, so if you were an 8 handicap and you shot an average of 8 over CSS, you would still see your handicap fall a bit, because for every score of CSS +4 you would lose 0.8, but for every score of CSS of +12 (averaging at CSS +8), you get back only 0.1. The buffer zone amplifies this effect. I would guess that person would end up with a handicap closer to 6.

 

[RGDave]

Anyone playing to "par" should NOT play off scratch, and that's taken care of by the CSS generally being 2 under par; hence if you play to 0 (gross) every week, you'll play off 2 (approx)

However, anyone managing to average 18 over par should be off less than 18 in my book.

I wish I knew that answer.

Actually those maths are not quite accurate. The handicap is not based on average score, but is assymetrical. Scores lower than CSS lower handicap more than scores above increase it, so if you were an 8 handicap and you shot an average of 8 over CSS, you would still see your handicap fall a bit, because for every score of CSS +4 you would lose 0.8, but for every score of CSS of +12 (averaging at CSS +8), you get back only 0.1. The buffer zone amplifies this effect. I would guess that person would end up with a handicap closer to 6.

Fascinating. Just for interest (and my sanity) if a club has a lot of cat. 3 players and they mostly play worse than the buffer, does that have an impact on the h'caps of cat. 1 players because of the "movement" of the CSS?

 

[Imurg]

I still hate CSS.
Who cares if the course is playing easy - more people get cut! If its playing hard then more people go up. Where's the problem?
We've already had the courses rated by SSS. Why do it again?
I just think it complicates things - an extra layer of administration.

Rubbish.
Q. Why doesn't the system just use Par?
A. Because it isn't fair course to course.

Q. Why not just use SSS?
A. Because it isn't fair day to day on same course.

All worked out by computer, no extra "administration" at all. Cannot for the life of me see why CSS would cause anyone an issue. It's just common sense.

Totally agree that you can't use par - that's where SSS comes in.
Why not just use SSS? If I play below SSS then I deserve to be cut regardless of how well/badly everyone else has played. That to me is common sense.

 

[Ethan]

Anyone playing to "par" should NOT play off scratch, and that's taken care of by the CSS generally being 2 under par; hence if you play to 0 (gross) every week, you'll play off 2 (approx)

However, anyone managing to average 18 over par should be off less than 18 in my book.

I wish I knew that answer.

Actually those maths are not quite accurate. The handicap is not based on average score, but is assymetrical. Scores lower than CSS lower handicap more than scores above increase it, so if you were an 8 handicap and you shot an average of 8 over CSS, you would still see your handicap fall a bit, because for every score of CSS +4 you would lose 0.8, but for every score of CSS of +12 (averaging at CSS +8), you get back only 0.1. The buffer zone amplifies this effect. I would guess that person would end up with a handicap closer to 6.

Fascinating. Just for interest (and my sanity) if a club has a lot of cat. 3 players and they mostly play worse than the buffer, does that have an impact on the h'caps of cat. 1 players because of the "movement" of the CSS?

I think Cat 1 players have the biggest effect on CSS, because they are more "reliable" than Cat 3 or 4.

 

[RGDave]

I think Cat 1 players have the biggest effect on CSS, because they are more "reliable" than Cat 3 or 4.

Thanks. I think I understand.

 

[HRC99]

I still hate CSS.
Who cares if the course is playing easy - more people get cut! If its playing hard then more people go up. Where's the problem?
We've already had the courses rated by SSS. Why do it again?
I just think it complicates things - an extra layer of administration.

Rubbish.
Q. Why doesn't the system just use Par?
A. Because it isn't fair course to course.

Q. Why not just use SSS?
A. Because it isn't fair day to day on same course.

All worked out by computer, no extra "administration" at all. Cannot for the life of me see why CSS would cause anyone an issue. It's just common sense.

Totally agree that you can't use par - that's where SSS comes in.
Why not just use SSS? If I play below SSS then I deserve to be cut regardless of how well/badly everyone else has played. That to me is common sense.

For the sake of waiting until the following day, I think CSS is essential. It makes the process fair throughout the year. Courses play harder and easier at different times of the year dependant on weather and condition. CSS ensures that people can play against each other on fair handicaps throughout the year.