CSS fair or not?

[19th]

I play a course par 71, SSS69, CSS sometimes 68 - now I have a bit of a problem with this.

If I were a pro I would be measured against par, now this to me is correct but imagine a pro coming in with a three under score to find, as he is enjoying his sausage, egg and chips, that Tiger has just recorded a 10 under and therefore his three under is now level par because Tiger has proved that, on the day, the course played easier!

I find it difficult to relate the two scores apart from the fact that one player played better than the other but it does not detract from the first players score.

Now I play seven over par, others in the same competition record their scores and with a bit of modern IT I am now recorded as playing ELEVEN over a made up new par figure.

Now the course has not altered, the first still needs a full drive/seven iron and two putts and the other holes need the player to hit the respective shots for each related to their par.

At no time has the greenkeeper increased the size of the hole, pulled the green forward 100 yards to make some holes that were par fours now reachable off the tee nor for that matter has the Good Man tipped each hole so that all holes are being played downhill!

So where do I pick up my four shots to par?

Because Tiger eagles a hole the par of that hole becomes lower for the competition result? No, that would be stupid - but if someone returns a low score in my competition my par, at some hole(s) or other suddenly change.....after I have played them!

We have three golf clubs playing off the same course every week and the Saturday medals will have 69,68,67 as their respective CSS for that day. How in the name of the Big Man can I, who play off the club with a CSS of 67, be deemed to have a higher handicap than someone who has returned the same score as me but is in the club with the CSS of 69?

It is not the golf course or the player but the calibre of the players in that club that dictate the players handicap - fair? I don't think so!

 

[USER1999]

But some courses are inherently easier than others.

CSS is mainly influenced by the cat 1 golfers. These tend to card more consistent scores, so if the CSS was lower on a given day, the conditions probably did make the course play easier.

If the course has par 72, SS 68, then this I have never understood. It is clearly a par 68, and they need to look at the layout. My track is par 72, and CSS is rarely lower than 71, mostly 72.

It is odd though. To me, if you shoot your handicap based on the course par, ie:72, you should never go up. It should always buffer. But it doesn't.

 

[JustOne]

CSS is a 100% waste of time in my opinion, whether the course is playing easier or not you still have to play the shots, a bit like owning a GPS.

 

[freddielong]

You are getting to caught up with the link between par and your handicap the link should be with the SSS. The CSS just tries to factor in the fact that the course play easier some days and harder on others.

Also the CSS does work in your favour if the course is playing really tough or the weather is bad

 

[USER1999]

To an extent, I'm with you James. The handicaps would soon sort themselves out, and the top 10 would still be the top ten. Every one would just have a lower h/cap. Isn't that what most of us want?

 

[bobmac]

It really doesn't matter what the par is or the SSS, its the CSS that you are handicapped on and thats what you have to beat.
If it's a howling gale and lashing down the CSS will change as it will if it's perfect conditions and easy pins

 

[19th]

It really doesn't matter what the par is or the SSS, its the CSS that you are handicapped on and thats what you have to beat.
If it's a howling gale and lashing down the CSS will change as it will if it's perfect conditions and easy pins

Bob, I take your point re CSS BUT three clubs playing the same course, at the same time, on the same day, have three different CSS returns, with a three stroke differential!

I am playing against the best players NOT the course or all CSS returned on that day, would be the same.

 

[Robobum]

Does anyone know the CSS calculation?? I know it's a cat1 biased thing but it just seems a bit "black magic" to me.

I know at our place it's just a case of "computer says no" but there must be some sort of manual calculation (heaven forbid the computer went down!!)

 

[Oddsocks]

how can three different CSS be in place on the same day, di it snow or something?

The only way i could see this happening is if the 3 clubs played from different tee's IE whites, Yellows, Reds or in some clubs Blacks.

 

[Region3]

Does anyone know the CSS calculation?? I know it's a cat1 biased thing but it just seems a bit "black magic" to me.

I know at our place it's just a case of "computer says no" but there must be some sort of manual calculation (heaven forbid the computer went down!!)

From elsewhere on t'interweb.

This is not a straightforward calculation. Broadly speaking, the calculations follow

For Men; Discount all scores returned by category 4 players (handicaps 21 to 28), for Ladies; Discount all scores returned by category 5 players (handicaps 29 to 36)
Calculate the percentage of players who competed in the competition in each of categories 1, 2 and 3 [and 4 for Ladies],
Calculate the percentage of scores returned by the category 1, 2 and 3 [and 4] players which were two over the Standard Scratch Score of the course, or better.
Use the percentages from (2) and (3) to determine the Competition Scratch Score by referring to a table supplied by CONGU for the purpose.

 

[Robobum]

Bloody hell!! I was right about the black magic thing.

Lost me after "this is not a straight forward calculation!!"

 

[19th]

how can three different CSS be in place on the same day, di it snow or something?

The only way i could see this happening is if the 3 clubs played from different tee's IE whites, Yellows, Reds or in some clubs Blacks.

We have three clubs, all over 100 years old, with our own clubhouses and facilities, playing off a local municipal course. We have tee time so that club a, then b, then c, then non club members play off at six minute intervals and this is then repeated all day.

The weather and course condition is therefore exactly the same for all three clubs BUT the CSS is dictated by the golfing ability of the top players in each club.

When each club enters their players scores up pops the CSS for the day and each club's CSS is different as it reflects the scores entered.

Because our club embraces the best golfers, at this time, I am penalised and I therefore feel it must be a strange system that allows this to happen.

Someone of a similar ability to me will be playing off the same course with a handicap two strokes lower.... because the better players play out of my club!

This proves conclusively that IT IS your fellow players ability that dictates your handicap and NOT the course or conditions, on the day!!

 

[Imurg]

I'm with James and Murph on this.
Who cares if the course is playing easy? You get cut more. And if its playing difficult then you go up .1 - where's the problem?
Everyone plays the same course.

What happens if you have perfect conditions in the morning and hurricanes in the afternoon? Doesn't matter. Play the course against SSS. That's what we get our handicaps from originally not some movable feast that needs a computer to work it out.

 

[Region3]

Bloody hell!! I was right about the black magic thing.

Lost me after "this is not a straight forward calculation!!"

Very broadly speaking, it's based on the percentage of cat1-3 players (for men) who score within 2 or better of their handicap.

 

[freddielong]

I'm with James and Murph on this.
Who cares if the course is playing easy? You get cut more. And if its playing difficult then you go up .1 - where's the problem?
Everyone plays the same course.

What happens if you have perfect conditions in the morning and hurricanes in the afternoon? Doesn't matter. Play the course against SSS. That's what we get our handicaps from originally not some movable feast that needs a computer to work it out.

I know some very low handicap golfers who dont play comps if the weather is poor because they are just giving back point one, I guess the CSS is also an attempt to stop that kind of thing

 

[Fyldewhite]

To answer the OP - of course it is fair, the whole ethos of the handicap system is to make it fair.

Consider a player scoring 3 under SSS on a perfect day but say coming 6th in the comp as there are lots of good scores. On another day where it's blowing and raining you score level and maybe win the comp as it was really difficult. If the SSS were used all the time to adjust then the other player would get cut and you would stay the same. How can that be fair? By adjusting the SSS up/down it attemts to counter this unfairness. It's not perfect but it isn't going to change anytime soon.

Another myth is that it's to do with the low players and lots of low scores. As explained above it is Category 1-3 players and scores better than SSS+2..... a SSS+2 score counts just the same as a SSS-7 score in the calculation.

 

[19th]

To answer the OP - of course it is fair, the whole ethos of the handicap system is to make it fair.

Another myth is that it's to do with the low players and lots of low scores. As explained above it is Category 1-3 players and scores better than SSS+2..... a SSS+2 score counts just the same as a SSS-7 score in the calculation.

Well Fly, no myths for me - I understand exactly how the CSS is arrived at but unlike you I find it unfair!

Why??

A player playing in my company every week in competition golf, recording the exact same scores on the exact same day, will play off a handicap two lower than me at year end, because he records his score in the clubhouse next door to me!!

The majority of players in my club play to their handicap or within +2 and next door they don't therefore our CSS is always lower than their one, by 2 strokes!

Conclusion? It is NOT the course conditions, on the day, that dictate the CSS it is the golfing ability of the fellow members or the CSS would be the same for each of the three clubs.

 

[jammydodger]

It is NOT the course conditions, on the day, that dictate the CSS it is the golfing ability of the fellow members

I have to agree with this comment , if people cant handle a little wind or rain and I can then its a human failing not the courses.

 

[Fyldewhite]

To answer the OP - of course it is fair, the whole ethos of the handicap system is to make it fair.

Another myth is that it's to do with the low players and lots of low scores. As explained above it is Category 1-3 players and scores better than SSS+2..... a SSS+2 score counts just the same as a SSS-7 score in the calculation.

Well Fly, no myths for me - I understand exactly how the CSS is arrived at but unlike you I find it unfair!

Why??

A player playing in my company every week in competition golf, recording the exact same scores on the exact same day, will play off a handicap two lower than me at year end, because he records his score in the clubhouse next door to me!!

The majority of players in my club play to their handicap or within +2 and next door they don't therefore our CSS is always lower than their one, by 2 strokes!

Conclusion? It is NOT the course conditions, on the day, that dictate the CSS it is the golfing ability of the fellow members or the CSS would be the same for each of the three clubs.

Understood, like I said it's not perfect but the situation you describe is at best very very unusual. I fully agree that it isn't fair (if it is always adjusted as you say and not just an occasional blip). Has anyone approached CONGU for advice on the situation? I would have thought the fair thing in those circumstances would to have a single SSS for all three clubs but how this would work in practice is debatable. In theory, if all the handicaps at the clubs are subject to the same control then this shouldn't happen. I think something is wrong with the way this is done or the split of players etc rather than the system to be honest.

 

[19th]

Fly, we all have the same SSS as it is the same course we all play.

My point is as CSS is not a measurement of the playing conditions of the course, on the day, against SSS but a measurement of the ability of my fellow golfers, in my club, in their returns ... i e a large percentage playing to their respective handicaps - so my handicap is dictated by the golfing ability of my fellow club golfers and not by me v the course .

This anomaly must be duplicated at many courses such as Carnoustie, St Andrews etc, where a number of clubs share the same golf course but will have differing CSS on the day.