Course Rating

[Deleted member 21784]

I've watched it.

Firstly...let me say it looks a lovely course...interesting contours and appears to have made decent use of the old land.

My overriding takeaway though from the video was that a 17 handicap golfer, who hits his hybrid as far as I hit my driver and his 6 iron the same as my 5 wood, was able to spray the ball all over the place, rarely hitting a fairway, but always being able to play an easy recovery shot from light rough, and only once found the gorse (13th hole).

I suspect, if that is typical, that's why the slope is relatively low....it seemed to me that he was simply unable to put his ball into trouble.

Thank you. At least somebody took the time to look at the video rather than just "manual says this"

I watched the video. He did play well that day by looks. Guess as members we remember the bad rounds more than the good ones

Even after all this, you still haven't grasped the fundamental purpose of Slope.

I understand it I don't agree with it. Two different things.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

CR has always been included in the calculation of score differential.

What changed, as you suggest, was the including of CR-Par in the calculation of Course Handicap.

Thanks, my mistake . Thing I find is they brought in a system that was "world" handicap. Then used Americans old system .. so we weren't world we did it our way. Then changed it

If they can get something so basic wrong could more not be wrong?

Would you say 111 rating is more accurate than the initial 117 we were given?

 

[doublebogey7]

I've offered a solution, don't use slope for score diffs .

Take them away suddenly cr is the only factor towards

Then it reflects the difficulty correctly

That is not a soluition to handicaps not travelling well, as I have explained. You don't though mind that it does not travel as you expressed aearlier, well I do as I would imagine do most of those who's handicaps did not previously travel well and found themselves struggling to compete in opens/matches etc.

 

[wjemather]

I understand it I don't agree with it. Two different things.

No, you very clearly do not. At all. Not even a little bit.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

No, you very clearly do not. At all. Not even a little bit.

In your opinion, not fact

That is not a soluition to handicaps not travelling well, as I have explained. You don't though mind that it does not travel as you expressed aearlier, well I do as I would imagine do most of those who's handicaps did not previously travel well and found themselves struggling to compete in opens/matches etc.

Slope can be used for course handicap... I'm not saying don't use for that..saying don't use it for score diff

 

[wjemather]

In your opinion, not fact

Your comments illustrate your lack of understanding.
Your persistent posting of the same assertions and misunderstandings demonstrate your lack of willingness to learn. Either that or you are only willing to accept an explanation that reaffirms your misconceptions - and you just aren't going to get that from anyone who knows anything about course rating.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Your comments illustrate your lack of understanding.
Your persistent posting of the same assertions and misunderstandings demonstrate your lack of willingness to learn.

I've shown willing to learn. I learned a while ago that it's the difference between what a scratch and bogey golfer would hit which is why our slope is lower

Im not the only poster who questions slope and ratings. This thread is all about it. Yet questioning it doesn't seem to be allowed.

 

[wjemather]

Slope can be used for course handicap... I'm not saying don't use for that..saying don't use it for score diff

I've said this already, but Slope is essential for the calculation of the Score Differentials, otherwise they are not reduced to a standard baseline that can then be adjusted for Slope in the calculation of Course/Playing Handicaps.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Are they allowed to ignore what's presented in front of them? Surely you take the course as found that day

Isn't that what a PCC is for?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I feel putting cards in too often is killing me, at this rate I'm going to stop putting cards in winter because course loses all roll becomes even longer and tougher

IE I go up 2 shots in winter and then come straight back down when summer hits

And again, if in winter a course becomes significantly longer and tougher - that applies across all handicaps - and the increased scoring (as opposed to difficulty) will be reflected in the PCC.

As it happens we have defined and have had rated a Winter course - this is set up so many of the wetter areas or other winter issues, can be avoided by (at least) most golfers.

 

[AussieKB]

PJ87....it is time to give up, no one is going to change their mind......

Everyone knows I think the system is flawed, been changed that many times in OZ and still does not work well with a lot of our courses, mostly Country courses, but a few in the metro areas.

Last year I played off scratch to as high as 8......if anyone can explain that to me, good luck.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

PJ87....it is time to give up, no one is going to change their mind......

Everyone knows I think the system is flawed, been changed that many times in OZ and still does not work well with a lot of our courses, mostly Country courses, but a few in the metro areas.

Last year I played off scratch to as high as 8......if anyone can explain that to me, good luck.

It's actually not that difficult for me to get my head round. I ask myself the question - if I play my 'typical' game with 'typical luck/bad luck' what might I expect t to play to. Even just in the context of my own club, if I play off our most forward tees my course handicap is 2. Off our back tees my course handicap is 10. I know exactly why there is such a difference.

 

[wjemather]

PJ87....it is time to give up, no one is going to change their mind......

Everyone knows I think the system is flawed, been changed that many times in OZ and still does not work well with a lot of our courses, mostly Country courses, but a few in the metro areas.

Last year I played off scratch to as high as 8......if anyone can explain that to me, good luck.

That's really quite simple.
At the most basic level, a course can have the same par whether played from 5000 yards or 7000 yards. It will obviously be much more difficult from the latter.
Your Daily Handicap reflects such differences as it includes the difference between Course Rating and Par, in addition to accounting for how much more/less difficult the course is for higher handicappers than scratch (Slope); so 0 at the easy course, 8 at the hard course, with your play-to-handicap score being 36 Stableford points (nett par) at both.

 

[IanM]

If you are not aware of how the formal rating process works, or having talked through the rating sheets with the assessors and challenged their findings, here we have 22 pages of King Lear (Act 3 Scene 1 ) raging on a hill top.

No offence intended, but that's how it looks.

I've even tried to think how it might spoil my day if I was a member there. I am struggling.

Played my first white tee medal of the season last week. One guy comes up to me on the putting green saying how much harder it is off whites and he's dreading it. The other player was delighted to be getting 3 more shots than he did off Winter Yellow Tees.

Guess who played better?

 

[rulefan]

Thank you. At least somebody took the time to look at the video rather than just "manual says this"

I watched the video. He did play well that day by looks. Guess as members we remember the bad rounds more than the good ones



I understand it I don't agree with it. Two different things.

I also watched it (twice in fact). It was noticeable that a) he was very rarely in trouble and b) he was a pretty long hitter. Perhaps the definition I posted earlier applies.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

I also watched it (twice in fact). It was noticeable that a) he was very rarely in trouble and b) he was a pretty long hitter. Perhaps the definition I posted earlier applies.

If he's a long hitter not a bogey golfer no? Thank you for watching it. Appreciate that

Bogey golfer seems an older concept as he is a bogey golfer and we see a lot of them now very long of tee. Teaching today is very much distance based

 

[nickjdavis]

Thanks, my mistake . Thing I find is they brought in a system that was "world" handicap. Then used Americans old system .. so we weren't world we did it our way. Then changed it

If they can get something so basic wrong could more not be wrong?

Would you say 111 rating is more accurate than the initial 117 we were given?

The 111 and 117 ratings are both accurate as they are derived from the rated CR and BR.....the slope is not a separate rating...it is just a number derived from the CR and BR numbers.

The formula to calculate slope, in its simplest form, is simply SLOPE = (BR-CR)*5.38

(The 5.38 is a different number for ladies...4.26 or thereabouts)

So for the slope to have changed there must have been a change in either (or both) the Course Rating and the Bogey Rating....as slope is derived from both of those numbers....so either the CR went up (course rated harder for lower handicaps) or the BR came down (easier for higher handicaps).

To effect a reduction of 6 on the slope then the relative difference of the CR and BR would need to be reduced by 1.11 shots....so the Course Rating could have gone up by 0.6 and the bogey rating down by 0.5....and those tiny changes...effectively just half a shot either way, would cause slope to reduce by 6.

So in all honesty...its not the slope you should be challenging....it is either the Course Rating or the Bogey Rating.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

The 111 and 117 ratings are both accurate as they are derived from the rated CR and BR.....the slope is not a separate rating...it is just a number derived from the CR and BR numbers.

The formula to calculate slope, in its simplest form, is simply SLOPE = (BR-CR)*5.38

(The 5.38 is a different number for ladies...4.26 or thereabouts)

So for the slope to have changed there must have been a change in either (or both) the Course Rating and the Bogey Rating....as slope is derived from both of those numbers....so either the CR went up (course rated harder for lower handicaps) or the BR came down (easier for higher handicaps).

To effect a reduction of 6 on the slope then the relative difference of the CR and BR would need to be reduced by 1.11 shots....so the Course Rating could have gone up by 0.6 and the bogey rating down by 0.5....and those tiny changes...effectively just half a shot either way, would cause slope to reduce by 6.

So in all honesty...its not the slope you should be challenging....it is either the Course Rating or the Bogey Rating.

The course rating remained the same. But we don't know what the bogey rating is. Where would you find that?

 

[nickjdavis]

The course rating remained the same. But we don't know what the bogey rating is. Where would you find that?

Your club may well have a record of what the old bogey rating was. The current bogey rating off your white tees is 92.4

To see current ratings you can use the USGA National Course Rating Database (the R&A also have one but it doesn't show you the Bogey Rating value)...

https://ncrdb.usga.org/

But I would suggest if the CR stayed the same then the Bogey Rating reduced by 1.1....so would have been 93.5 or thereabouts

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Your club may well have a record of what the old bogey rating was. The current bogey rating off your white tees is 92.4

To see current ratings you can use the USGA National Course Rating Database (the R&A also have one but it doesn't show you the Bogey Rating value)...

https://ncrdb.usga.org/

Thank you