Course index evaluation

[Hfuhruhurr]

Hi All,
I am a member at Saunton Golf Club which is fortunate enough to have 2 links golf courses, East and West. The East is traditionally known as the Championship course and has held many prestigious tournaments, not least the recent British Boys which was played over the East course. Both courses have been assessed for relative course indexes but to me they don’t make any sense. The back tees on the West course measures 6596 yards and has been given a course index of 140. The East (Championship) course from back tees measures 6774 yards but has only been given a course index of 127 ? To highlight this discrepancy further, the West yellow tees (front tees played on by many of our retired members) measures 5813 yards and has been given a course index of 132, which as you can see rates it harder than our Championship course from the back tees.
I appreciate that course comparison is sometimes difficult, but in this case the two golf courses are adjoining on similar pieces of land and are rated fairly similar in difficulty by the members, so this new rating calculation has many of us scratching our heads. Did the same person(s) evaluate both courses ? See below for a general breakdown.
Course Distance Course index
East Blue 6774 yds 127
East Yellow 5708 116
West Blue 6596 140
West Yellow 5813 132
A recent ranking by Golf World described the West course as ‘less punishing’ than the East.
I understand that the club management appealed to England Golf against the indexes but this was refused without any re-assessment. I can understand the benefits of the new system by unifying global handicap systems to enable the level playing field for players of different abilities, but this will only hold true if the course indexes are seen to be correctly evaluated.
Do other members have similar frustrations with this calculation for their courses ? Were they able to get any form of re-evaluation ?

 

[KenL]

What are the pars for the courses and the course ratings from the different tees?

 

[IanM]

I love Saunton and play there regularly, have even spoken to the Sec about joining. Both Blues are Par 71

I won't get into the debate, but I predict you'll get similar stories and some others telling you that you don't understand Course Ratings! Apparently the new system is faultless and we're too dumb to love it!

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Without giving the Course Ratings it's impossible to compare. It's possible that a 7000 yard course could have a Slope Rating of 113
Slope Rating depends on your Handicap to whether you find a course more or less punishing

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Saunton Golf Club East Course WHS Course Rating Certificate.pdf

Saunton Golf Club West Course WHS Course Rating Certificate.pdf

Links above to certificates.

Personally I have always scored worse on the west than the east, suppose that makes then correct

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Saunton Golf Club East Course WHS Course Rating Certificate.pdf

Saunton Golf Club West Course WHS Course Rating Certificate.pdf

Links above to certificates.

Personally I have always scored worse on the west than the east, suppose that makes then correct

Going by the Course Ratings for a scratch golfer the order from easiest to hardest is as follows.... East-Yellow , West-Yellow, West-Blue & East-Blue the hardest, If that's the general opinion of the lower handicaps there, then the certificates are fairly accurate

 

[RichA]

I returned to golf last year after a 10 year break and had never been a club member or had a handicap, until recently, so all this stuff was a mystery to me.
My home course is long, but lacks hazards. Not being a confident driver, the distance kills me where others find it unchallenging. I'm never going to hit a green 400 yards away in 2 shots.
During the Autumn, I played a couple of courses in Devon that are rated 2 or 3 shots harder. There were more hazards, but the courses were shorter than my home course by nearly 1000 yards. The hazards were positioned to challenge golfers driving from the tee and were easily missed by my second shots, many of which were able to reach the greens. Despite never having played them before, I scored way better than at home.

Is the course rating maybe concentrating on the challenge posed to better golfers and the number of hazards, rather than pure distance?

I watch the odd YouTube golf vid and see golfers who seem no better than me talking about their mid-teens handicap and worrying when they bogey a par 4. Then you Google the course they were playing and see that the par 4s are all 240-340 yards.

 

[Hfuhruhurr]

Saunton Golf Club East Course WHS Course Rating Certificate.pdf

Saunton Golf Club West Course WHS Course Rating Certificate.pdf

Links above to certificates.

Personally I have always scored worse on the west than the east, suppose that makes then correct

 

[Hfuhruhurr]

But from the yellow (front) tees ? The tee carries are modest in comparison.

 

[LincolnShep]

Hi All,
I appreciate that course comparison is sometimes difficult, but in this case the two golf courses are adjoining on similar pieces of land and are rated fairly similar in difficulty by the members, so this new rating calculation has many of us scratching our heads. Did the same person(s) evaluate both courses ? See below for a general breakdown.
Course Distance Course index
East Blue 6774 yds 127
East Yellow 5708 116
West Blue 6596 140
West Yellow 5813 132

Slope rating is irrelevant, it's not a measure of difficulty.
Consider the relative values of the course ratings instead.
I realise that doesn't answer your question, but you're asking the wrong question!

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Slope rating is irrelevant, it's not a measure of difficulty.
Consider the relative values of the course ratings instead.
I realise that doesn't answer your question, but you're asking the wrong question!

This ^^

As i understand it the course rating is not an indication of difficulty, it is an indication of the difference in difficulty for a handicap golfer compared to a scratch golfer. If the rating is quite low then I guess that means the course is of similar difficulty for both handicap ranges.........I think!

 

[Bdill93]

Slope rating is irrelevant, it's not a measure of difficulty.
Consider the relative values of the course ratings instead.
I realise that doesn't answer your question, but you're asking the wrong question!

Couldnt have put it better.

Slop isnt difficulty - course rating is.

 

[harpo_72]

This may not be a helpful response but here goes ... it’s just a perception ignore it and break each hole down and play to avoid hazards and look to get the second shot on a favourite club ... scores will tumble or just take your driver out lash wildly and be that stat that created the mainstay of this new system

I shall grab my coat now, as someone will say a low handicapper needs to hit a ball further than 280 yards with a driver.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Saunton Golf Club East Course WHS Course Rating Certificate.pdf

Saunton Golf Club West Course WHS Course Rating Certificate.pdf

Links above to certificates.

Personally I have always scored worse on the west than the east, suppose that makes then correct

Out of Interest, how do you get pdf's of course certificates

 

[sweaty sock]

What happens if a man plays of the reds or a woman plays from any tee other than the reds?

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Out of Interest, how do you get pdf's of course certificates

Seen quite a lot on golf clubs websites, Sauntons are on theirs(the links I provided, is to the club website).

Would imagine the club is given one after evaluation but don't personally know, sure someone on here will be able to confirm.

 

[jim8flog]

Seen quite a lot on golf clubs websites, Sauntons are on theirs(the links I provided, is to the club website).

Would imagine the club is given one after evaluation but don't personally know, sure someone on here will be able to confirm.

The club has one and is required to have it shown where players can read it (or that used to be the rule under the UHS).

Ours came in the pack provided by England Golf.

 

[jim8flog]

What happens if a man plays of the reds or a woman plays from any tee other than the reds?

For a player of either sex to play off any tee they require a Slope Index and Course ratings for that tee.

It is the plan that all tees should be non gender specific but to get to this point the majority will probably have to be remeasured.

 

[rulefan]

Out of Interest, how do you get pdf's of course certificates

Official Course Ratings and Slope Indices are here. It shows the gender for which each set of tees have been rated

https://www.randa.org/worldhandicapsystem/Lookup

 

[rulefan]

Hi All,
Did the same person(s) evaluate both courses ? See below for a general breakdown.
Course Distance Course index
East Blue 6774 yds 127
East Yellow 5708 116
West Blue 6596 140
West Yellow 5813 132
A recent ranking by Golf World described the West course as ‘less punishing’ than the East.
I understand that the club management appealed to England Golf against the indexes but this was refused without any re-assessment. I can understand the benefits of the new system by unifying global handicap systems to enable the level playing field for players of different abilities, but this will only hold true if the course indexes are seen to be correctly evaluated.
Do other members have similar frustrations with this calculation for their courses ? Were they able to get any form of re-evaluation ?

As said in an earlier post, it would seem you have misunderstood the Course Rating System.

The measure of difficulty for a model scratch player is the Course Rating (CR). In this case the CR for the East Blue is 74.4 and the West Blue is 73.4. So for a scratch player the East is assessed as being the more difficult.

The item you call the Course Index is in fact the Slope Index (SI). This ONLY tells you how much more difficult that set of tees is relatively for a bogey golfer (ie a handicap of about 20-22) as opposed to the scratch player. It does not tell you how difficult the course is.

The East Blue has an SI of 127, the West Blue SI is 143. So that says the the West is relatively more difficult for the bogey player than the scratch player.

Have you looked at the club notice board(s) which tell you how many strokes you get when playing off those tees. If you check for a 5, 15 and 25 handicapper and see what they get, it might help.