Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[SocketRocket]

Child

 

[Mandofred]

Dont individuals have responsibility for their actions or is it soely the responsibility of the Presedent or Prime minister. Surely we all know how this virus is transported and the potential it has to kill or dissable. We have all seen people giving no regard to social distancing or risk taking, it's too easy to blame the leader or the government for everything and certain people do it with absolutely no balance or reasoning.

There are all kinds of rules that need to be put in place just because you can't trust everybody to do the right thing. That's why Govt's put in speed limits, rules on seat belts, no nuclear bombs in the house etc etc. The Govt isn't responsible for everything, but there are some basic smart things that they do need to insist on. Heck, all I have to do is think about what happens on the golf course....lot's of people don't even try to fix their divots. It's simple to do....but they just aren't going to do it and unless you make them somehow....they aren't going to do it. Our course took all the garbage cans away from the holes once we locked down.....so plenty of people just started throwing their trash on the ground. Idiots.....but there are plenty of idiots.

 

[MegaSteve]

Dont individuals have responsibility for their actions or is it soely the responsibility of the Presedent or Prime minister. Surely we all know how this virus is transported and the potential it has to kill or dissable. We have all seen people giving no regard to social distancing or risk taking, it's too easy to blame the leader or the government for everything and certain people do it with absolutely no balance or reasoning.

Being in government/office is about taking responsibility... If not willing or unable to do so move aside... As all governments eventually find out there are no hiding places when failure occurs...

 

[SocketRocket]

There are all kinds of rules that need to be put in place just because you can't trust everybody to do the right thing. That's why Govt's put in speed limits, rules on seat belts, no nuclear bombs in the house etc etc. The Govt isn't responsible for everything, but there are some basic smart things that they do need to insist on. Heck, all I have to do is think about what happens on the golf course....lot's of people don't even try to fix their divots. It's simple to do....but they just aren't going to do it and unless you make them somehow....they aren't going to do it. Our course took all the garbage cans away from the holes once we locked down.....so plenty of people just started throwing their trash on the ground. Idiots.....but there are plenty of idiots.

But those things do get put in place but you cant hold politicians personally responsible for people deciding to ignore them, unless you want a police state.

 

[SocketRocket]

Being in government/office is about taking responsibility... If not willing or unable to do so move aside... As all governments eventually find out there are no hiding places when failure occurs...

As I said previously, you cant blame politicians for the idiotic behaviour of people deciding to disobey the rules to keep them safe.

 

[Ethan]

Dont individuals have responsibility for their actions or is it soely the responsibility of the Presedent or Prime minister. Surely we all know how this virus is transported and the potential it has to kill or dissable. We have all seen people giving no regard to social distancing or risk taking, it's too easy to blame the leader or the government for everything and certain people do it with absolutely no balance or reasoning.

In this country Public Health is clearly, and in statute, the responsibility of Government.

People should of course act responsibly. It is more likely to happen if the Govt gives them clear sensible advice. Individuals sometimes find it quite tricky to close down migration, bulk purchase PPE for NHS staff, or to set up testing laboratories, though.

As for 'we all know this virus has the potential to kill or disable'. Well, we do now. Not so long ago this Govt thought this virus was more or less harmless to younger people and those with no co-morbidities and were happy to let to sweep through that part of the population.

 

[Foxholer]

Child

Oh the irony! Again!

 

[MegaSteve]

As I said previously, you cant blame politicians for the idiotic behaviour of people deciding to disobey the rules to keep them safe.

So, what "idiotic behaviour" did the poor souls that were taken whilst they thought they were in a place of safety... Or, what about those going about their daily lives, within the NHS and other 'keyworker' positions, that have contracted the virus? Politicians/government have responsibilities and they should own them or move on...

 

[drdel]

In this country Public Health is clearly, and in statute, the responsibility of Government.

People should of course act responsibly. It is more likely to happen if the Govt gives them clear sensible advice. Individuals sometimes find it quite tricky to close down migration, bulk purchase PPE for NHS staff (1), or to set up testing laboratories, though.

As for 'we all know this virus has the potential to kill or disable'. Well, we do now. Not so long ago this Govt thought (2) this virus was more or less harmless to younger people and those with no co-morbidities and were happy to let to sweep (3) through that part of the population.

1. Individual Trusts were advised to hold more PPE stock by previous administrations but decided to do their own thing.

2. A Government conclusion based of medical experts and worldwide consensus at the time and as knowledge improved advice changed.

3. Where/where and who has the Government were "happy" - this is an opinion not a statement of fact.

Another issue with international death comparisons - UK data uses the date of death recording not the date of death leads to administrative variability even in smoothed averages (not the same elsewhere).

 

[SocketRocket]

Oh the irony! Again!

Child

 

[SocketRocket]

So, what "idiotic behaviour" did the poor souls that were taken whilst they thought they were in a place of safety... Or, what about those going about their daily lives, within the NHS and other 'keyworker' positions, that have contracted the virus? Politicians/government have responsibilities and they should own them or move on...

Of course people in the front line have contacted the virus but dont make out it was the direct policy of politicians. How could anyone consider treating Covid patients a 'safe place' the chance of contracting the virus will be greatly enhanced against people staying at home.
You know that the point I was making was about those of the general public who have decided to ignore safety practices, not front line staff. Cheap shot.

 

[SocketRocket]

In this country Public Health is clearly, and in statute, the responsibility of Government.

People should of course act responsibly. It is more likely to happen if the Govt gives them clear sensible advice. Individuals sometimes find it quite tricky to close down migration, bulk purchase PPE for NHS staff, or to set up testing laboratories, though.

As for 'we all know this virus has the potential to kill or disable'. Well, we do now. Not so long ago this Govt thought this virus was more or less harmless to younger people and those with no co-morbidities and were happy to let to sweep through that part of the population.

People have been informed of the risks and how to reduce them. If some decide to take stupid risks then how do you consider the government stop them.

 

[Jamesbrown]

So, what "idiotic behaviour" did the poor souls that were taken whilst they thought they were in a place of safety... Or, what about those going about their daily lives, within the NHS and other 'keyworker' positions, that have contracted the virus? Politicians/government have responsibilities and they should own them or move on...

What they didn’t do and what people don’t still not do is that first bit of government advice from the very beginning. Stay at home.
They disastrously and wrongly trusted you me and the U.K. to do the right thing without draconian lockdown measures.
As a nation we stuffed up.
None of us should of been out doing what you liked cycling 20 miles, playing golf, going to the pub, visiting family and parties.
The option is there to do those things, it doesn’t mean you should but as people continue to do those things, they tell the government we aren’t bothered.

We’re only human and we are all selfish.

 

[MegaSteve]

Of course people in the front line have contacted the virus but dont make out it was the direct policy of politicians. How could anyone consider treating Covid patients a 'safe place' the chance of contracting the virus will be greatly enhanced against people staying at home.
You know that the point I was making was about those of the general public who have decided to ignore safety practices, not front line staff. Cheap shot.

There's the thing... IF government had applied some six P management after the most recent exercise/trial with regard pandemic preparedness they may well have been ahead of the curve rather than being so far behind as they found themselves...

 

[SocketRocket]

There's the thing... IF government had applied some six P management after the most recent exercise/trial with regard pandemic preparedness they may well have been ahead of the curve rather than being so far behind as they found themselves...

Do you honestly believe the scientists and medical experts along with the expertise in the NHS and Civil Service dont understand basic management (when I studied management 6 ps were marketing) techniques. Maybe they need to get you in with your six P management techniques to put them right. ? This virus has struck the World to its knees, dont try to trivialise the situation.

 

[Ethan]

1. Individual Trusts were advised to hold more PPE stock by previous administrations but decided to do their own thing.

2. A Government conclusion based of medical experts and worldwide consensus at the time and as knowledge improved advice changed.

3. Where/where and who has the Government were "happy" - this is an opinion not a statement of fact.

Another issue with international death comparisons - UK data uses the date of death recording not the date of death leads to administrative variability even in smoothed averages (not the same elsewhere).

Still waiting on answers to your last post too, by the way.

On this set:

1. The responsibility for pandemic planning is a Governmental one. Even you must know that. Exercise Cygnus in 2016 warned of the hazards of localised and fragmented plans. The Govt could easily have mandated Trusts to hold more, if indeed it was their responsibility. There are plenty of legislative and financial levers to do so.

2. It was most certainly not the local or worldwide consensus that a herd immunity strategy was anything other than hideously reckless and likely ineffective. The idea was based on the modelling you like so much. As I pointed out before, Imperial did not get proper peer review on it sooner, or the errors in the model would have been detected sooner. Oh, and "happy" means willing to allow a policy, as you know well. It is not an opinion that they were pursuing such a policy. It is a fact, as blurted out by Vallance, nicely allowing him to carry the can for it. .

3. The data of death recording makes sod all difference to the number of excess deaths, or the overall pattern of the disease, and it certainly does not explain any international differences. There are a number of differences between recording systems. Some other countries may have, as the UK did, instructed corners to refuse death certificates with Covid on them unless there was a positive test. Others didn't.

 

[Foxholer]

Child

Oh the irony!

 

[MegaSteve]

What they didn’t do and what people don’t still not do is that first bit of government advice from the very beginning. Stay at home.
They disastrously and wrongly trusted you me and the U.K. to do the right thing without draconian lockdown measures.
As a nation we stuffed up.
None of us should of been out doing what you liked cycling 20 miles, playing golf, going to the pub, visiting family and parties.
The option is there to do those things, it doesn’t mean you should but as people continue to do those things, they tell the government we aren’t bothered.

We’re only human and we are all selfish.

There's the thing... Government went ostrich sat on their hands and prevaricated... Being anti-establishment I don't have much truck with the nanny state... In circumstances when others inaction can act negatively for the many government needs to grow a pair step up and take charge and own the situation... Being nice, trying to win friends, really doesn't cut it against unseen 'enemies'... The "selfish"...

 

[MegaSteve]

Do you honestly believe the scientists and medical experts along with the expertise in the NHS and Civil Service dont understand basic management (when I studied management 6 ps were marketing) techniques. Maybe they need to get you in with your six P management techniques to put them right. ? This virus has struck the World to its knees, dont try to trivialise the situation.

Other parts of the World have managed the situation way better than our government... Largely, reputedly, due to far better preparedness and taking charge with a firmer grip...

 

[drdel]

There's the thing... IF government had applied some six P management after the most recent exercise/trial with regard pandemic preparedness they may well have been ahead of the curve rather than being so far behind as they found themselves...

Sounds good but I think there would be very practical issues with implementation and parameters. Many organisations play lip-service to the concept but very few fully commit and get it right.