Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[Deleted member 16999]

A big leap there, from being outside being fairly safe to what you say there.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, I am saying facts ie. beach low risk, people always goto beach when sunny, no second wave from previous hot days.

So talking about beach is a red herring in second wave coming, emotive yes but not true.

Not that big a leap from my post that you answered were I mentioned more than the beaches being the issue, the beaches are just 1 place the idiots have gathered.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Slightly OT but to me the Union flag on Hair Force One looks upside down.
Is that not a distress signal.

Well worth nearly £1m though, think of all the prestige it will bring when Johnstone, Mogg, Gove, Patel etc fly off to Paris.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Not that big a leap from my post that you answered were I mentioned more than the beaches being the issue, the beaches are just 1 place the idiots have gathered.

Outdoor stuff with some element of social distancing, has been proven to be really low risk. Emotive in groups yes but risk low.

People gathering illegally has been going on all around the world, even in harsher countries. Just look at Spain and how many fines they issued.

You really need to goto harsh measures to control the vast majority of people IMHO, ie. you could just disappear if you do not comply or have lockdown really early on and control arrivals(which I was a fan of)

but beaches or outside with an element of social distancing are not areas I lose sleep over, talk about pubs/clubhouses/clubs/gyms etc where people sit for a while, share stuff(chairs/tables etc) and fairly close and inside, worry me much more.

But hopefully cases will continue dropping, as we pick up more of the cases via more testing and the chances of catching it, becomes very very low, as you cant catch it from someone who isn't infected in outside or inside.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Outdoor stuff with some element of social distancing, has been proven to be really low risk. Emotive in groups yes but risk low.

People gathering illegally has been going on all around the world, even in harsher countries. Just look at Spain and how many fines they issued.

You really need to goto harsh measures to control the vast majority of people IMHO, ie. you could just disappear if you do not comply.

but beaches or outside with an element of social distancing are not areas I don't lose sleep over, talk about pubs/clubhouses/clubs/gyms etc where people sit for a while, share stuff(chairs/tables etc) and fairly close and inside, worry me much more.

But hopefully cases will continue dropping, as we pick up more of the cases via more testing and the chances of catching it, becomes very very low, as you cant catch it from someone who isn't infected in outside or inside.

It’s still worrying seeing any rise anywhere in the World, I understand there is less risk outside, but those risking it may then carry it inside to shops, public transport etc.

All these mass gatherings from protest marches to illegal raves to going the beach can all be traced back to not clamping down on the smaller outdoor gatherings early on.

We are stuck between the what we believe and what we are being told.

 

[Hobbit]

When you have about 9 million people furloughed and a lot of self employed people/business owners not working full time either. (Yeah those figures are about correct and scary.)

It is exactly what I would expect of humans, beaches packed on a sunny day.

And to be honest purely from a virus catching it point of view, being on the beach or in the countryside as the risk of infection is low, far better being on the beach than inside having a house party or group hugging in their garden etc.

Not saying it is right as I wouldn't do it(wouldn't do it in normal times) but taking emotions out of it, the risk of a second wave from being on a beach is very low, as history has shown us.

Beaches packed?!? You expect beaches to be packed? When life was running normally, pre-lockdown in the UK, the infection rate was running at almost 4, and the UK's total number of deaths is over 40k.

Beaches here were off limits until a week and a half ago, and I'll put money on the weather being way better than you've had for the last 3 months.

We had out first beach visit today. The nearest family was 20 yds away, and if there were 200 families across a mile of beach that was also 200yds deep I'd be surprised. And its a tourist beach that mainly attracts Spaniards.

The simple observation is the UK has totally screwed up how its been managed. Over €9 million in fines mean people know exactly where they stand here. And we're seeing a blip in the numbers, doubly every day for almost a week.

Good luck.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

Beaches packed?!? You expect beaches to be packed? When life was running normally, pre-lockdown in the UK, the infection rate was running at almost 4, and the UK's total number of deaths is over 40k.

Beaches here were off limits until a week and a half ago, and I'll put money on the weather being way better than you've had for the last 3 months.

We had out first beach visit today. The nearest family was 20 yds away, and if there were 200 families across a mile of beach that was also 200yds deep I'd be surprised. And its a tourist beach that mainly attracts Spaniards.

The simple observation is the UK has totally screwed up how its been managed. Over €9 million in fines mean people know exactly where they stand here. And we're seeing a blip in the numbers, doubly every day for almost a week.

Good luck.

I agree UK should have locked down earlier and harder, but that isn't what I am talking about.

I don't take the risk, so you are talking to the converted, why would I wish to take the risk and spend a day at a packed beach or like, as I previously posted...

Now emotive talk out of the way, have you heard of any of the clusters of cases in Spain, actually linked to beach transmission that I was talking about ?

In addition any new cases being attached to outside spaces or a super spreader event outside(involving crowds) ? All the articles I have read have been due to friends, family reunions, care homes, hospitals, inside spaces, work places and so on, outside infection with an element of social distancing seems really rare, like very rare and out of the people I know who have had it, none caught it outside.

Would genuinely be interested to hear if you know of any outside cases and if so, how many, any links ?

 

[pendodave]

Beaches packed?!? You expect beaches to be packed? When life was running normally, pre-lockdown in the UK, the infection rate was running at almost 4, and the UK's total number of deaths is over 40k.

Beaches here were off limits until a week and a half ago, and I'll put money on the weather being way better than you've had for the last 3 months.

We had out first beach visit today. The nearest family was 20 yds away, and if there were 200 families across a mile of beach that was also 200yds deep I'd be surprised. And its a tourist beach that mainly attracts Spaniards.

The simple observation is the UK has totally screwed up how its been managed. Over €9 million in fines mean people know exactly where they stand here. And we're seeing a blip in the numbers, doubly every day for almost a week.

Good luck.

For a really well run country, with draconian lockdown rules, spain seems to have experienced a remarkably similar journey through the virus lifecycle to us...

 

[Deleted member 21258]

For a really well run country, with draconian lockdown rules, spain seems to have experienced a remarkably similar journey through the virus lifecycle to us...

Spains residents are not whiter than white, one heck of a lot of fines have been issued and the lockdown rules stricter and earlier than we did, still don't understand how Spain was not more successful tbh??

IIRC there was a large crowd celebrating a saints day(?) the other day in Spain, that I read about and the cases being investigated in other regions were all linked to inside/work/family etc and some attached to things people should not be doing.

I know I read a medical paper from china(??) and out of something like 7000 odd cases, 1(yeah 1) had been link to an outside case over a discussion between 2 people iirc.

I like to take in the information/knowledge so I can amend my life according and when it is likely to be safe to go in a clubhouse or into my parents or childrens homes. To date it isn't safe or been allowed. As a result in my lockdown boredom have been reading a lot in lockdown !

Today another drop in UK cases, when compared to Friday last week cases. Hopefully we continue moving in the downward direction.

Anyway take care and have a great weekend.

 

[SocketRocket]

I agree with you apart from the travel restrictions outlook, at this stage in the spread.

I know and you know, I am not going to change your opinion about beaches.

Show me the FACTS (not emotions) from the beach going, producing a 2nd wave or increasing infections considerably, prove your point and I will be happy to change my opinion tho.

Yet to see facts by anyone on the forum or anywhere to be honest, from beach going producing the 2nd wave, only seen loads of emotional talk over it.

How can anyone produce facts, people could get Infected, go home infect others and so on, how can anyone prove this chain of infection started in a particular place unless a tracing app is used. Of course there is more chance of spreading infection indoors but that's not an excuse to gather in large numbers outside, The Cheltenham Festival for example was a mistake as was the Liverpool v Atletico match and these were outdoor events. If we want to make our best effort to return to a near normal life then we dont need cockwombles (that bit was a bit emotional) increasing the risk of spreading the virus.

 

[Foxholer]

It's all over Facebook, people blaming Dominic Cummings for going to the beach ?
I never thought people could be so moronic but they have surpassed my expectations.

While I certainly don't condone it, that 'excuse' was a natural consequence of what Cummings did - and 'got away with doing'!
That, to me, is/was the primary reason why Cummings should have gone - either on his own or by being ditched! And similar applies to MPs who did similar - though the 'apology for being an idiot' that many of them issued generally suffices imo. They are pretty much constantly in the spotlight, and any glitch is likely to be noticed and reported. I've certainly had a 1 or 2 of those 'oops!' moments as, I'm sure, almost all of those still working are likely to have had in the millions of 'situations' encountered in a workplace!

 

[Foxholer]

...
Yet to see facts by anyone on the forum or anywhere to be honest, from beach going producing the 2nd wave, only seen loads of emotional talk over it.

I'm inclined to believe that it's not 'being at the beach' that's the 'danger', but the act of 'going to the beach' and all the potential contacts surrounding that.

 

[Old Skier]

Whether you feel going to the beach was right or wrong the amount of rubbish the majority leave behind is disgusting and nobody can excuse it.

 

[Foxholer]

Spains residents are not whiter than white, one heck of a lot of fines have been issued and the lockdown rules stricter and earlier than we did, still don't understand how Spain was not more successful tbh??
...

Latinos are much more 'touchy-feely' folk than Brits! I'm uncertain how their attitudes to Govt edicts compares.

 

[Deleted member 21258]

I'm inclined to believe that it's not 'being at the beach' that's the 'danger', but the act of 'going to the beach' and all the potential contacts surrounding that.

Absolutely agreed, if you go on public transport(rather than your own vehicle) or staying in say hotels or go to the shops or pubs or such like. You cleverly moved it from outside space to inside and will happen if they stay at home rather than goto the beach and then goto the shops or public toilet or pub etc

The big question still not fully answered moving forward is, will social distancing be adhered to inside and will it actually stop infection or drop infection rates a fair bit / a lot, as we reopen inside spaces.

I do know we can not remain locked forever, for many reasons. Hope a vaccine comes along in the coming few months or I wonder if I will ever go into my familys houses etc.

 

[Foxholer]

...Hope a vaccine comes along in the coming few months or I wonder if I will ever go into my familys houses etc.

This has to be the #1 focus of health research in the world. Once a vaccine is freely available, virtually all current restrictions will disappear! It's ONLY because of the lack of a vaccine that these draconian restrictions are in place!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I expected Nicola to have a go at the Kelvingrove Park crowds today but she was quite muted, said that she can understand how they feel.
She did have a right go at the rubbish they left behind though.

 

[Foxholer]

Yes, I do see the corruption view. I'm not sure however that you can justify the claim that there is a high level of corruption though. The Government want more and more housing and planners in Councils have to follow the Government's wishes or they will just be overruled at appeal and that really doesnt look good given the escalating cost of appeal

I certaainly never did that! Though there's certainly 'opportunity' and a couple of developments I've seen would suggest that something dodgy went on! That's different to the legitimate planning 'deal-making' that is quite reasonable (at least imo) with the likes of supermarkets and massive developments, where it's the developer that should be funding any improvements required to the infrastructure nearby as a consequence of their development. But that's the boundary I see should not be crossed. A developer bearing the cost of changing the roads around a supermarket so that traffic flows as it needs/should is fine. Building a sports hall, for example, as part of an 'agreement' to get planning permission for a supermarket strikes me as 'corruption' of the planning process!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Slightly OT but to me the Union flag on Hair Force One looks upside down.
Is that not a distress signal.

Well worth nearly £1m though, think of all the prestige it will bring when Johnstone, Mogg, Gove, Patel etc fly off to Paris.

..and for when David Davis flies to Berlin to set out our terms of trade with the Germans for that nice and easy trade deal...

 

[chrisd]

Building a sports hall, for example, as part of an 'agreement' to get planning permission for a supermarket strikes me as 'corruption' of the planning process!

But invariably that is what I believe is "planning gain" or S106. It's a way for the council/community gets something it needs for allowing another thing that it needs. It's all over and above board, discussed in the pre app and the final planning process and then passed/rejected by the Council members - not the council employees.

If the council doesnt want a supermarket and the councillors on the planning committee reject it then there is a likelihood that the developers will go to appeal and may always get approval anyway.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

...and I am not sure that it is best idea for George Eustace to be excusing the packed beaches of yesterday telling the interviewer today that - well - after all - we have been in lockdown for months and it has been the hottest day of the year. Is that really the message that a minister should be putting out?