Coronavirus - political views - supporting or otherwise...

[Old Skier]

If people want a NHS that can provide for the needs of today’s demographics then we all must be prepared to pay more for it and the NHS must be prepared to come under more scrutiny and become more efficient.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Can you tell us where he said that?

On the Marr show.
Marr absent due to his fathers death so it was hosted by that awful Robinson guy, the one who told all those lies in 2014.

 

[SaintHacker]

Hancock thinks we should now use the notebook and pencil strategy suggested by a drove of elderly experts on the IOW six weeks ago.
My goodness it really is getting like Handcock's half hour.

Really? They tested something new, quite rightly, and found that it didn't work as hoped, so are moving onto plan b. Surely thats the whole point of testing something?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

On the Marr show.
Marr absent due to his fathers death so it was hosted by that awful Robinson guy, the one who told all those lies in 2014.

And you are certain that is what he said?

 

[Foxholer]

Really? They tested something new, quite rightly, and found that it didn't work as hoped, so are moving onto plan b. Surely thats the whole point of testing something?

Unfortunately, there are obvious deficiencies of pencil and paper 'tracking' in mainland UK, even if perhaps (and I doubt it!) everyone on IOW can remember who they 'came into contact with' on any day. It's not simply a case of 'let's use technology' ao much as 'it can only be done with technology' - even if that's only going to be 90% (or whatever) reliable.
And while Android phones are pretty 'open', Apple's innards are, quite deliberately and reasonably, very secure. The proper way to handle that issue was o get Apple to co-operate on the development - with Apple providing an interface that provides the info, but retains the security/privacy that Iphone users expect - which is often why they spent the extra money to purchase an Iphone!

 

[Hobbit]

Quite. We don't often agree( seems I'm one of your right wingers ?), but the above in bold is a very good point.
As soon as I see insurance mentioned in terms of health care, I.e private as opposed to NHS, then I am very wary.
The whole point of insurance is that some are low risk ( low premiums) and those at high risk face high premiums.Basic law if insurance as I see it.
So in a private health insurance scheme, if you become chronically sick, you surely face crippling premiums, or maybe even insurance cover is withdrawn.

In another thread, some on here have examples about their pets insurance rise in premiums as their dogs get older. Exponential rises in premiums.
Don't accuse me , in deflection, of likening people with dogs , ( I prefer the latter, BTW?)
but the same principles would be applied by insurance companies. I cannot see it any other way.
NHS is the only civilised system , IMO. Sure, it should be run better, but as system of health care for a nation, it cannot be bettered.
If you support the private health system , have a look at a speech made by JFK, about health care. (It's findable online). It may surprise you, considering he was an American.

I've not kept up to date with where the UK is in terms of healthcare provision. A few years back the UK was in 14th place in Europe, and Spain was in 5th place in the world. In neither case do the citizens pay for healthcare. Can the NHS system be bettered outside the UK? It already is, and by some tune around the world. The vast majority of countries around the world have Universal Healthcare. Canada, Mexico and 95% of South America has it. All of Europe and 2/3 of Asia has it. Africa, unfortunately doesn't have it in the version most of the world has. If you lift the Britannia Blinkers you might be very surprised.

The money paid to the NHS has, for many years, not kept up with medical advances. Think about it. An MRI suite might cost hundreds of thousands of pounds per hospital. Add to that new medicines and other new treatments. Has the NHS budget kept up with that? Nowhere near. What was the best in the world, not 50 years ago, no longer is.

 

[rulefan]

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...espendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29

See in particular

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...-spent-on-healthcare-governance-and-financing

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Sorry but that's where we go wrong in this country. Assuming that the NHS is the only civilised system and cannot be bettered.

I don't know whether it is or not, in certain areas of treatment it does seem to fall short of other countries.

But until it and any alternatives are fully investigated we none of us know.

The health provision in the other countries I previously mentioned could never be described as private or "devil take the hindmost", and I would never advocate the American system.

But we should always keep searching if for no other reason than to ensure that whatever service we have it is best serving society.

Just for clarity, MM?. I didn't say it couldn't be better run, I said the system couldn't be bettered.i.e. All pay in (unless you genuinely are not able to), and free at point of contact.
It certainly could be better run. Less chiefs and better valued and remunerated Indians .

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Just for clarity, MM?. I didn't say it couldn't be better run, I said the system couldn't be bettered.i.e. All pay in (unless you genuinely are not able to), and free at point of contact.
It certainly could be better run. Less chiefs and better valued and remunerated Indians .

But from Hobbit's post #4408 it would appear that it can possibly be bettered (and I believe he had some experience of health provision).

The last thing we, as a society, can afford to do is be complacent about our health services.

It may be that the NHS requires some changes, it certainly needs more funding.

But it may be that there is a better way of providing universal healthcare.

My point is that we don't yet know

 

[SocketRocket]

fixed that... it is not just the young who can be snowflakes (just saying )

You asked the question, didnt you want that answer.
Regarding the sarcastic bit: diissapointing and probably better not to get dragged in.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

But from Hobbit's post #4408 it would appear that it can possibly be bettered (and I believe he had some experience of health provision).

The last thing we, as a society, can afford to do is be complacent about our health services.

It may be that the NHS requires some changes, it certainly needs more funding.

But it may be that there is a better way of providing universal healthcare.

My point is that we don't yet know

Well, Hobbit seems to know?. Perhaps he could explain how Universal health care system works in all these countries. Genuine question, how does it work?
How, particularly, for chronically ill people?

 

[Hobbit]

Well, Hobbit seems to know?. Perhaps he could explain how Universal health care system works in all these countries. Genuine question, how does it work?
How, particularly, for chronically ill people?

You want me to explain healthcare provision in every country in the world? Really? Are you looking to split hairs to try and justify your previous post that the UK's can't be bettered? I have personal experience of healthcare provision living in Germany, France, Sweden, The Netherlands, Spain and the UK. And I worked in the industry for 30 years.

And you want me to break down by illness? Get real.

By all means feel free to do your own research. I can't be ar5ed getting into a willy waving competition on healthcare systems but I'm very happy with my stance that the UK's system isn't the best in the world.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I had no feel for the cost of private healthcare until we looked for some for my wife for when we went travelling.

We were both covered through my works scheme but that was to be stopped when i took the sabbatical to travel. With her existing condition (in remission with Breast Cancer) the insurer we are covered through my work scheme said they would take her on with that existing condition on a monthly premium of £550. That could be reduced a bit if we choose a multiple £000s excess.

I must admit to being shocked at that figure. I had no idea.

 

[User62651]

So Hancock/Public Health England will need to face a 1st court case over the deaths in care homes fiasco. The Dr lady bringing the case wrt her deceased father was just on sky news and seems pretty switched on. The outcome of this case could be massive for Govt if the High Court finds in her favour. Alleged negligence causing 1000s of care home deaths if proven in court would be extremely serious for Govt. So far they continue to deny deny deny. Could just as easily apply to devolved govts too.
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...ns-legal-action-against-matt-hancock-12012227

 

[Swinglowandslow]

You want me to explain healthcare provision in every country in the world? Really? Are you looking to split hairs to try and justify your previous post that the UK's can't be bettered? I have personal experience of healthcare provision living in Germany, France, Sweden, The Netherlands, Spain and the UK. And I worked in the industry for 30 years.

And you want me to break down by illness? Get real.

By all means feel free to do your own research. I can't be ar5ed getting into a willy waving competition on healthcare systems but I'm very happy with my stance that the UK's system isn't the best in the world.

Hang on, I'm not being funny or sarcastic etc here. I saw your post saying that a lot of countries used " Universal Healthcare". They were your capital letters, which led me to think you were referring to a particular system with a particular style of funding etc, in the same way that the term "NHS "in England defines a particular system of funding and administration .
It now seems that each of the countries you referred to has their own methods, and if so then of course I don't expect you to example them all. I'll do my own research. But a couple of examples , of which you clearly have intimate knowledge, would help towards the discussion.
For clarity, I'm not saying the NHS provides the best health available, but it does provide health care for all, even if you become poor or destitute.
Do the others, and how?, briefly.
If the others are not similarly funded , are they insurance funded etc?
That's what I was asking, is all?
There was no animosity in my post towards anyone.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Hang on, I'm not being funny or sarcastic etc here. I saw your post saying that a lot of countries used " Universal Healthcare". They were your capital letters, which led me to think you were referring to a particular system with a particular style of funding etc, in the same way that the term "NHS "in England defines a particular system of funding and administration .
It now seems that each of the countries you referred to has their own methods, and if so then of course I don't expect you to example them all. I'll do my own research. But a couple of examples , of which you clearly have intimate knowledge, would help towards the discussion.
For clarity, I'm not saying the NHS provides the best health available, but it does provide health care for all, even if you become poor or destitute.
Do the others, and how?, briefly.
If the others are not similarly funded , are they insurance funded etc?
That's what I was asking, is all?
There was no animosity in my post towards anyone.

In Germany there is compulsory insurance paid by both employer and employee, very similar to our NI contributions.

Premiums are earnings related rather than risk based.

Access to the service is available to all so unemployed or those with critical conditions are not excluded.

 

[clubchamp98]

So Hancock/Public Health England will need to face a 1st court case over the deaths in care homes fiasco. The Dr lady bringing the case wrt her deceased father was just on sky news and seems pretty switched on. The outcome of this case could be massive for Govt if the High Court finds in her favour. Alleged negligence causing 1000s of care home deaths if proven in court would be extremely serious for Govt. So far they continue to deny deny deny. Could just as easily apply to devolved govts too.
http://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...ns-legal-action-against-matt-hancock-12012227

This is where they will try and blame the advisors.
Following the science etc.
It was an extraordinarily pressured time .
Mistakes were made and will no dought be brought to the fore. Rightly so.
But imo a lawsuit solves nothing.
Unless you lost the main breadwinner and it’s hurting financially.
It’s not bringing anybody back.
The courts are the last place for an argument like this imho.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

This is where they will try and blame the advisors.
Following the science etc.
It was an extraordinarily pressured time .
Mistakes were made and will no dought be brought to the fore. Rightly so.
But imo a lawsuit solves nothing.
Unless you lost the main breadwinner and it’s hurting financially.
It’s not bringing anybody back.
The courts are the last place for an argument like this imho.

Or the only place she believes she can “legally” get the truth.

Just writing to her local mp or Government minister may not be enough as she could possibly receive polite responses which don’t answer her questions.

From reading the reports and listening to her, she certainly didn’t come across as doing it for monetary gain.

 

[clubchamp98]

Or the only place she believes she can “legally” get the truth.

Just writing to her local mp or Government minister may not be enough as she could possibly receive polite responses which don’t answer her questions.

From reading the reports and listening to her, she certainly didn’t come across as doing it for monetary gain.

Yes I agree with that.
That is down to the government though to be transparent and not try to cover things up.
If they do that a lawsuit would be unnecessary.
But I can’t see them doing that so the lawyers will make a few bob again.

 

[drdel]

This is where they will try and blame the advisors.
Following the science etc.
It was an extraordinarily pressured time .
Mistakes were made and will no dought be brought to the fore. Rightly so.
But imo a lawsuit solves nothing.
Unless you lost the main breadwinner and it’s hurting financially.
It’s not bringing anybody back.
The courts are the last place for an argument like this imho.

I agree.

Surely it would be the care home owners who, if there was a negligence claim, would be in the firing line.

Goverment issued guidance IMO it would have to start at the point of implementation: espacially if it was a Private business.