Coronavirus - how is it/has it affected you?

[Pathetic Shark]

You have to love sports fans sometimes. Some of Canada's provinces are still restricted but Winnipeg were letting fans in for their hockey games at 50% capacity - all masked. So this one guy in the crowd, takes his mask off for about 20 seconds to whistle at the officials for a bad call. I mean, that is hardly going to spread anything at all is it?

 

[Swango1980]

Around we go in another cycle of differing opinions from the same entrenched folk.
But I can't see the logic of not requiring Care Home staff to be (fully) vaccinated! The folk they are caring for are, after all, the most vulnerable, so need and deserve 'special' treatment. The lack of such care when the virus first arrived was almost criminal neglect!

Unison stated we were being pushed to the brink of a staffing catastrophe in the care sector.

So, let us say that the requirement to be fully vaccinated remained in place, do we have the staff to cover that? Will the consequence be:

• Vulnerable residents would have less staff to look after them;
• Vulnerable residents would have to look for care elsewhere as some homes are closed;
• Elderly people who do not need care, but will soon need care will be unable to find a nursing home to go to.

Are those reasons of no concern? If they are, are there quick ways to completely mitigate them if we instantly lose many staff members? If not, are those risks to the vulnerable a lesser price to pay than some catching Covid from an unvaccinated staff member (bearing in mind all the other restrictions the nursing home may have in place due to their health and safety policies, and the fact that the current variant is seemingly much milder than before).

What about the vulnerable patients themselves. How many would rather see the back of an unvaccinated staff member, even if that staff member was an absolutely amazing person who cared for them with dignity, and had a very special place in their heart. I can't speak for all of them, but I am sure some, or many elderly would far rather that unvaccinated staff member stay, especially with the current variant?

 

[Ethan]

Well, the question was asked on this forum why these certain restrictions were lifted.

Rather than provide a response from an unqualified amateur golfer, I stated the response of a GP who also is likely to have many contacts who are experts in this area. Of course, different experts will still have various levels of opinion, based around the interpretation of the evidence. However, the response he gave seemed to provide a perfectly good explanation as to why these restrictions were lifted. Whether you agree with these reasons is another matter altogether. In my own opinion, I'm inclined to agree with the current outcome, but I guess we all need to make our own minds up at some point, if experts are giving differing opinions.

How do you know any given amateur golfer is unqualified? Or that they don't have contacts with known experts in the field?

 

[Swango1980]

How do you know any given amateur golfer is unqualified? Or that they don't have contacts with known experts in the field?

I don't. I'm sure some of the top experts in the world play golf. However, based on probability, I'd have to assume that a person is not in that field without any other information. And, even if they are, I can still quote the statements of other experts to add an alternative opinion. As I explicitly said, "different experts will still have various levels of opinion" and "whether you agree with these reasons is another matter altogether".

I'm not demanding anyone agrees with any statements I make. I'm simply providing some answers to a question that was asked, that seem to be fair and balanced answers, that's all.

 

[bobmac]

How do you know any given amateur golfer is unqualified? Or that they don't have contacts with known experts in the field?

I'm not qualified

 

[Ethan]

I don't. I'm sure some of the top experts in the world play golf. However, based on probability, I'd have to assume that a person is not in that field without any other information. And, even if they are, I can still quote the statements of other experts to add an alternative opinion. As I explicitly said, "different experts will still have various levels of opinion" and "whether you agree with these reasons is another matter altogether".

I'm not demanding anyone agrees with any statements I make. I'm simply providing some answers to a question that was asked, that seem to be fair and balanced answers, that's all.

Cool. But Hilary Jones still isn't an expert on Covid. Nice enough bloke, from what I hear, but he was clearly "walking it back".

If anybody is concerned about NHS staffing, the real problems are pay and conditions, which have got much worse in recent years, and reforms to pension taxation for senior staff who are forced to reduce their hours or retire early to avoid punitive tax charges.

 

[Foxholer]

...
What about the vulnerable patients themselves. How many would rather see the back of an unvaccinated staff member, even if that staff member was an absolutely amazing person who cared for them with dignity, and had a very special place in their heart. I can't speak for all of them, but I am sure some, or many elderly would far rather that unvaccinated staff member stay, especially with the current variant?

Refer to the last 2 lines of my post that you quoted!

 

[Swango1980]

Cool. But Hilary Jones still isn't an expert on Covid. Nice enough bloke, from what I hear, but he was clearly "walking it back".

If anybody is concerned about NHS staffing, the real problems are pay and conditions, which have got much worse in recent years, and reforms to pension taxation for senior staff who are forced to reduce their hours or retire early to avoid punitive tax charges.

You've already said that. But, maybe even a pure expert on Covid is no expert in caring for the elderly in general, or dealing with staffing issues in the care sector? An expert in Covid may tell us this variant is less dangerous than the last, but can still cause harm to the vulnerable. They can tell us that the next variant might be more dangerous. And, I don't think anyone here would argue with that.

However, there is a reason that a Covid expert does not make decisions on public health. They simply feed into the decision making process. Just because Covid still presents a risk, that does not mean maintaining restrictions is a good thing, not if there are worse unintended consequences.

A GP who appears in the media is likely to have many sources of information, and the fact that he has been in the media for such a long time probably indicates he does a pretty decent job at representing the various field in healthcare pretty well.

 

[Swango1980]

Refer to the last 2 lines of my post that you quoted!

That provides no answer. Views will be different for individuals, but I've heard numerous opinions from the elderly that they do not want to see unvaccinated staff leave, people they consider friends.

 

[Foxholer]

That provides no answer. Views will be different for individuals, but I've heard numerous opinions from the elderly that they do not want to see unvaccinated staff leave, people they consider friends.

There wasn't question to be answered!
And the simple answer is for the Care Home owners to require them to be vaccinated!

 

[road2ruin]

There wasn't question to be answered!
And the simple answer is for the Care Home owners to require them to be vaccinated!

Did you have a read of the BMJ article that I posted above, it includes quotes such as.....

Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”

There is also the issue that even if a careworker is vaccinated, if it the protection and therefore the effects on transmissibility do wane after 10 weeks are you then expecting them to be jabbed 5 times a year as even the jabbed will become unjabbed on that front.

 

[Foxholer]

Did you have a read of the BMJ article that I posted above, it includes quotes such as.....

Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”

There is also the issue that even if a careworker is vaccinated, if it the protection and therefore the effects on transmissibility do wane after 10 weeks are you then expecting them to be jabbed 5 times a year as even the jabbed will become unjabbed on that front.

I've been aware of all of that for a number of months thanks.

 

[Ethan]

You've already said that. But, maybe even a pure expert on Covid is no expert in caring for the elderly in general, or dealing with staffing issues in the care sector? An expert in Covid may tell us this variant is less dangerous than the last, but can still cause harm to the vulnerable. They can tell us that the next variant might be more dangerous. And, I don't think anyone here would argue with that.

However, there is a reason that a Covid expert does not make decisions on public health. They simply feed into the decision making process. Just because Covid still presents a risk, that does not mean maintaining restrictions is a good thing, not if there are worse unintended consequences.

A GP who appears in the media is likely to have many sources of information, and the fact that he has been in the media for such a long time probably indicates he does a pretty decent job at representing the various field in healthcare pretty well.

I am afraid you have an unrealistic idea of how a media doc works. And what a 'Covid expert' is. Media docs are very much more likely to get their briefing from a producer, the pointed press ones usually don't write the work that goes out under their name, and I doubt they have insider information on stuff that is not in the public domain. It is often quite obvious to people who understand the issues to see that the media docs are filling in blanks with a bit of bluffing. But they are often good at explaining complex stuff in terms that the average Sun reader (aimed at a primary school reading age) can understand.

There are a range of different forms of expert and expertise on Covid, ranging from epidemiology and public health to virology to infectious diseases to immunology to intensive care medicine to medicine development. I am a registered specialist in two of those areas. A lot of the stuff I have heard from experts speaking outside their field of expertise on one of the areas of my expertise, medicine development, sounded plausible to a lay audience but was utterly wrong. No good asking me what ventilation pressures one would use in a Covid patient in ICU. Nor asking a virologist about the effectiveness of public health measures. And so on.

Unfortunately, the media thinks an expert is an expert.

 

[Swango1980]

I am afraid you have an unrealistic idea of how a media doc works. And what a 'Covid expert' is. Media docs are very much more likely to get their briefing from a producer, the pointed press ones usually don't write the work that goes out under their name, and I doubt they have insider information on stuff that is not in the public domain. It is often quite obvious to people who understand the issues to see that the media docs are filling in blanks with a bit of bluffing. But they are often good at explaining complex stuff in terms that the average Sun reader (aimed at a primary school reading age) can understand.

There are a range of different forms of expert and expertise on Covid, ranging from epidemiology and public health to virology to infectious diseases to immunology to intensive care medicine to medicine development. I am a registered specialist in two of those areas. A lot of the stuff I have heard from experts speaking outside their field of expertise on one of the areas of my expertise, medicine development, sounded plausible to a lay audience but was utterly wrong. No good asking me what ventilation pressures one would use in a Covid patient in ICU. Nor asking a virologist about the effectiveness of public health measures. And so on.

Unfortunately, the media thinks an expert is an expert.

It is good to see you are an expert on how the media works, along with public health in general.

But, if you think the loss of care staff is a much lesser risk to the vulnerable, then so be it.

I still don't agree with you. Sorry.

 

[road2ruin]

I've been aware of all of that for a number of months thanks.

So why the insistence on having care staff jabbed?

Given the care crisis in this country (which was there pre-Covid) you seem more than happy to have those who require care to be left to fend for themselves rather than have an unvaccinated carer. I know which one I would rather go with if given the two options.

 

[Ethan]

1. It is good to see you are an expert on how the media works, along with public health in general.

2. But, if you think the loss of care staff is a much lesser risk to the vulnerable, then so be it.

3. I still don't agree with you. Sorry.

1. Thanks for noticing. I have the certificate.

2. I think any care home or NHS staff member who is unvaccinated is a threat to their patients. And the numbers who leave would be much smaller than Unison say.

3. Fine by me.

 

[Foxholer]

So why the insistence on having care staff jabbed?
...

Because it protects Care Home 'inhabitants'! It's a current requirement that even the document 'justifying' the revocation states that 'all people working in health and social care settings have a professional duty to be vaccinated'.

Edit. See Item 2 in Ethan's post above. Much more succinctly put!

...
Given the care crisis in this country (which was there pre-Covid) you seem more than happy to have those who require care to be left to fend for themselves rather than have an unvaccinated carer....

That suggestion is obscene!

 

[Swango1980]

Getting tiring again.

For those who feel OK with restrictions, don't waste your breath. You'll try and provide an answer, it'll be ignored. Unless you are a certified medical professional, you have no idea anyway. You are just getting your information from the Sun or media health "experts" anyway. Did you know, a media health expert would come on to a show to explain why it was a BAD idea to lift vaccination requirements, but the producer would tell them to say it was a GOOD idea. I know it sounds strange, especially given the agenda of that show was very much to say every decision made since Covid began has been a disaster. Big u-turn by the TV channel.

I'm happy to say I'm comfortable with the current guidelines, and I can caveat that with the fact there is no certainty in life, and things change. If others are 100% certain one way or another, then that is their decision. Maybe they'd be better spending time on medical health forums than golf ones though, if they want to chat to experts in the area.

 

[Foxholer]

Getting tiring again.
...

 

[HomerJSimpson]

For the first time almost since we recorded the first UK death at my trust we are Covid free in ICU. I am not sure how long that will last but you could see the affect it has had on everyone that has been on the frontline. We know it isn't the end of the war but we feel, just for now, we've won a major battle and we have time to get our breath, revalidate our learning, and enjoy the feeling of immense pride. There are still around 80 cases in the trust so .it is still there lurking in the background but for now, it is time to be positive