Contiguous GUR and path.

[jim8flog]

Addled brain this morning.
Would somebody please point me to the current ruling for dropping re a contiguous GUR and path. I am sure we can now take one drop instead of two but want to be sure

 

[rulefan]

Addled brain this morning.
Would somebody please point me to the current ruling for dropping re a contiguous GUR and path. I am sure we can now take one drop instead of two but want to be sure

I assume you mean that the path and GUR are adjacent to each other.
Are they defined/marked as one area or two separate areas?

 

[Swango1980]

I assume you mean that the path and GUR are adjacent to each other.
Are they defined/marked as one area or two separate areas?

Does the word "contiguous" not answer that question?

If in doubt, an answer to either scenario could be useful

 

[rulie]

If the area that is not path is not marked as GUR, how do you know it is GUR?

 

[Swango1980]

If the area that is not path is not marked as GUR, how do you know it is GUR?

The OP literally used the word GUR? Does it not go without saying that this area of GUR is marked? If it isn't marked, then that would be a completely different question, one I don't think is being asked?

As nobody seems willing to answer the question (maybe it was more unclear than I think, and my brain is fried this Friday afternoon), if one drop can be used would the answer not lie in the area defined as GUR? Although the path is GUR (within your local rules), and it lies against an area of marked GUR, can the whole area simply be defined as one area of GUR. It would only be defined as 2 separate areas of GUR if there was a gap between the path and the marked GUR?

Besides, if it had to be done in 2 drops, could this not introduce a crazy scenario where you take relief from the path in the marked GUR, and then relief from the marked GUR could be back on the path, and you may just end up in an infinite cycle of drops. Almost like Austin Powers trying a 3-point turn

 

[jim8flog]

Besides, if it had to be done in 2 drops, could this not introduce a crazy scenario where you take relief from the path in the marked GUR, and then relief from the marked GUR could be back on the path, and you may just end up in an infinite cycle of drops. Almost like Austin Powers trying a 3-point turn

Pre 2019 you had to try several times and only when it was obvious after trying could you take relief both from both problems at the same time

 

[jim8flog]

I assume you mean that the path and GUR are adjacent to each other.
Are they defined/marked as one area or two separate areas?

The GUR or whatever we are going to mark it as will be contiguous with the path
I am trying to ascertain that if the player is dropping out of the area next to the path if they have to first drop on the path and then at the NPR from the path
I had it in mind that the rule had changed and a player could go straight to the NPR for the path, opposite side to the area which has to be decided what we are going to call it.

 

[rulie]

If they are two different areas, each marked (or maybe the artificially surfaced path is not marked), then it's a two drop procedure.
It's a common local Rule (not a Rule) that damaged areas adjoining artificially surfaced paths are deemed to be part of the path, even if not marked as GUR, thus eliminating the two drop procedure (which most players wouldn't understand or do anyway).

 

[Default Golfer]

We have a local rule based on Model Local Rule F3 which covers this

 

[rulefan]

Does the word "contiguous" not answer that question?

If in doubt, an answer to either scenario could be useful

if they are not 'tied' together see Clarifications 16.1/2 & 16.1/3.
Otherwise see the Model Local Rules in F-3.

 

[jim8flog]

Thanks for the guide to MLR F-3 that is what I was looking for.
There is a possibility that we may make the area a Penalty Area so I assume we can adopt this rule in equity.
The scrub area is to the left of the path and the nearest point will always be right.#

 

[rulefan]

There is a possibility that we may make the area a Penalty Area so I assume we can adopt this rule in equity.

A penalty area is:
Any other part of the course the Committee defines as a penalty area.

But does the area deserve a penalty? How does equity come into it?

 

[Backsticks]

I would drop away from the path and GUR in one go, regardless of the rules. Its quicker. Nobody in my group would know the answer, and the last thing they would want is someone wasting everyone's time consulting the rules, and following that up by looking a prat dropping on the path and then dropping again to where I should have gone to in the first place. They will happily sign my card without the slightest concern that there was any rule breach or advantage gained. This is in the spirit of the new get-on-with-it push in golf generally.

 

[Steven Rules]

Thanks for the guide to MLR F-3 that is what I was looking for.
There is a possibility that we may make the area a Penalty Area so I assume we can adopt this rule in equity.
The scrub area is to the left of the path and the nearest point will always be right.#

This new information about a penalty area has confused me but I assume it is clear to you. Is the penalty area boundary going to be the edge of the path?

At the risk of stating the obvious, if the ball is in the penalty area there is no free relief for interference by the path (which is presumably in the general area). If the ball is on the path (presumably in the general area) then the reference point and relief area must be in the general area; they cannot be in the penalty area and there is no need for a Local Rule to state this.

As an aside, 'equity' as a principle for deciding Rules issues disappeared in 2019. Post-2019, 20.3 sort of covers it, but not quite.

 

[jim8flog]

At the risk of stating the obvious, if the ball is in the penalty area there is no free relief for interference by the path (which is presumably in the general area). If the ball is on the path (presumably in the general area) then the reference point and relief area must be in the general area; they cannot be in the penalty area and there is no need for a Local Rule to state this.

I know this.

One of the major points is that county wanted Drop Zones for one of their events but I am trying to get rid of them and any LR which resulted from the DZs being adopted by the club.

We are also considering making it GUR with a NPZ in the GUR or just GUR.

I am conversant with all the rules implications.

 

[Steven Rules]

In that case, I remain confused about your reference to penalty areas.

 

[jim8flog]

A penalty area is:
Any other part of the course the Committee defines as a penalty area.

But does the area deserve a penalty? How does equity come into it?

Yes as a better alternative than DZs which is what county wanted. In some but not all of the area there is insufficient room to drop a ball due to OB the other side of the area and the change in the rules (2019) allows for one*

Equity because the MLR F-3 only talks about GUR and a penalty area produces the same situation.

I have noticed a general reluctance with our committee to consider creating Penalty Areas and I bet it is the same at many clubs. In the videos for the 2019 change it was showing having a penalty area in a wood area on a course.

 

[jim8flog]

In that case, I remain confused about your reference to penalty areas.

Penalty areas are now allowed where there is no water, 2019 rules change. See post #17

 

[Steven Rules]

Yes. I know that. No problem there.

F-3 is about avoiding conplicated relief situations from adjacent abnormal course conditions.

As per my post at #14, there is no need for a Local Rule for a path that is the border for a penalty area.

At #15 you assert that you are conversant with the Rules implications, so clearly it is I who am missing something in terms of either your intent or the geography.

 

[rulefan]

1) Is this area really deserving of a penalty? Presumably if it was decent grass it would simply be part of the General Area.

2) Why not just tie the GUR to the path and make it one IO?
Edit: Just noticed the reference to a nearby OB. Is there space to actually drop (ie double drop and place) the ball and then take a stance in the OB?