CONGU Club Handicaps

[rulefan]

and are, in our club, eligible for both prizes and handicap adjustments

I wholeheartedly support that

 

[Crazyface]

I wholeheartedly support that

So do I.

My question came out of a meeting last night, and it appears that what this person said was correct, reading the replies on here. THis baffles me. What then, is the point of a Club Handicap if they then are NOT eligible for qualifiers? Confusing rubbish from the idiots who are ruining the sport

 

[rulefan]

So do I.

What then, is the point of a Club Handicap if they then are NOT eligible for qualifiers?

We may be at cross purposes. If so, my apologies.

They may play in Qualifiers but their scores are not used in the CSS calculation. Their scores are related to SSS for handicap adjustments. The may also play in other competitions on a measured course but they will not be Qualifiers if there are no CONGU Handicappers entered.

If/when their handicap comes down to 28.0 they will then change from CONGU Club to CONGU.

 

[duncan mackie]

We may be at cross purposes. If so, my apologies.

They may play in Qualifiers but their scores are not used in the CSS calculation. Their scores are related to SSS for handicap adjustments. The may also play in other competitions on a measured course but they will not be Qualifiers if there are no CONGU Handicappers entered.

If/when their handicap comes down to 28.0 they will then change from CONGU Club to CONGU.

What you describe would have been true of some senior competitions previously when only cat 4 players participated.

It would still have been a Qualifier.

Definitely a case of cross purposes creeping in!

 

[Crazyface]

That is correct.

To play in a qualifier you need to have a CONGU handicap. A player with a CONGU Club handicap hasn't got (and can't have) a CONGU Handicap.

But just to remind people, a Club handicap player's score does not contribute to the CSS calculation in any way. Similarly but not the same, the score of a player with a handicap of 24 playing in a 18 limit comp is counted as 24 cap when the CSS calc is done.

The only relevance of such 'adjusted or artificial' handicaps is for prize purposes alone.
I suspect many clubs have a relatively high number or members who cannot play to 28. Why not give them the facility to play for their own prizes?
Of course the UK is completely out of step with the rest of the world. Perhaps it explains why UK club membership is still going down but up in Europe and Asia.

You see this is what came from our meeting, and I believe one of those CONGU road things. The member in question specifically asked this question and got this reply. I thought they may have been mistaken, but it appears not.

So, Club handicap holders MAY NOT play in CONGU qualifiers.

 

[Old Skier]

You see this is what came from our meeting, and I believe one of those CONGU road things. The member in question specifically asked this question and got this reply. I thought they may have been mistaken, but it appears not.

So, Club handicap holders MAY NOT play in CONGU qualifiers.

I'm off to sunny Tiegnmouth for a round of golf but when I'm back I can, if required send you an email from CONGU that disputes this.

 

[rosecott]

You see this is what came from our meeting, and I believe one of those CONGU road things. The member in question specifically asked this question and got this reply. I thought they may have been mistaken, but it appears not.

So, Club handicap holders MAY NOT play in CONGU qualifiers.

If the club committee has decided, as ours has, that Club Handicap holders can play in a competition (qualifier or otherwise) and are eligible for prizes along with the CONGU handicap holder, then this is the situation:

1. Club Handicap scores are ignored in the CSS calculation if it is a qualifier.
2. Club Handicap scores are used for handicap adjustments in the manner laid down for Club Handicaps (which is different to that used for CONGU handicaps).
3. The results will show the scores for all players participating in order. If the competition is set up in divisions, the Club Handicap results will appear in the highest number division (if the software has been correctly set up to include them).

We have already played 14 qualifiers in which Club Handicap holders have played alongside CONGU Handicap holders and the results and prizes involved both sets of players.

 

[Colin L]

If the club committee has decided, as ours has, that Club Handicap holders can play in a competition (qualifier or otherwise) and are eligible for prizes along with the CONGU handicap holder, then this is the situation:

1. Club Handicap scores are ignored in the CSS calculation if it is a qualifier.
2. Club Handicap scores are used for handicap adjustments in the manner laid down for Club Handicaps (which is different to that used for CONGU handicaps).
3. The results will show the scores for all players participating in order. If the competition is set up in divisions, the Club Handicap results will appear in the highest number division (if the software has been correctly set up to include them).

We have already played 14 qualifiers in which Club Handicap holders have played alongside CONGU Handicap holders and the results and prizes involved both sets of players.

I am impressed by how well your club has taken this on - it must be something of a role model.

One thing. Conscious of the possible attitudes towards it and any misconception that it’s not a “real” handicap, I’ve been at pains always to refer to it as the CONGU Club Handicap. I guess, though, that you haven’t had to be that careful!

 

[rosecott]

I am impressed by how well your club has taken this on - it must be something of a role model.

One thing. Conscious of the possible attitudes towards it and any misconception that it’s not a “real” handicap, I’ve been at pains always to refer to it as the CONGU Club Handicap. I guess, though, that you haven’t had to be that careful!

We were very conscious of the potential problems of the attitudes of those who remained on high CONGU handicaps without being offered a Club Handicap. We took great care to explain the new system - and how the Handicap Committee had calculated who was eligible for the offer - and the reasoning behind the committee's decision to implement it. Inevitably there were initial mutterings but things settled down quite quickly and CONGU and Club handicappers now just get on with competition play.

 

[Foxholer]

You see this is what came from our meeting, and I believe one of those CONGU road things. The member in question specifically asked this question and got this reply. I thought they may have been mistaken, but it appears not.

So, Club handicap holders MAY NOT play in CONGU qualifiers.

Oh the joys of (mis-)interpretation!!

If the Club allows it, players with a Congu Club Handicap can indeed play in Qualifiers.

To me, there doesn't seem any reason why players with a Congu Club Handicap should be prevented from playing in competitions that someone off 26 or 27, say, is allowed to play!

 

[delc]

We may be at cross purposes. If so, my apologies.

They may play in Qualifiers but their scores are not used in the CSS calculation. Their scores are related to SSS for handicap adjustments. The may also play in other competitions on a measured course but they will not be Qualifiers if there are no CONGU Handicappers entered.

If/when their handicap comes down to 28.0 they will then change from CONGU Club to CONGU.

Their scores will not be included in the CSS calculation in the same way as Cat 4's were not included up to the end of last year. Their handicaps will be adjusted against CSS though. There is no point in having club handicaps if they can't play in club competitions! I suppose clubs can impose handicap limits for certain board competitions.

 

[Colin L]

We were very conscious of the potential problems of the attitudes of those who remained on high CONGU handicaps without being offered a Club Handicap. We took great care to explain the new system - and how the Handicap Committee had calculated who was eligible for the offer - and the reasoning behind the committee's decision to implement it. Inevitably there were initial mutterings but things settled down quite quickly and CONGU and Club handicappers now just get on with competition play.

That is really helpful to know. Thanks.

 

[duncan mackie]

Oh the joys of (mis-)interpretation!!

If the Club allows it, players with a Congu Club Handicap can indeed play in Qualifiers.

To me, there doesn't seem any reason why players with a Congu Club Handicap should be prevented from playing in competitions that someone off 26 or 27, say, is allowed to play!

Or, as an even more relevant example, a player off 28.0 who has elected not to increase beyond that even if their Q performance warrants it (in order to retain their CONGU handicap status).

So you could have a player who should be off 30 who is permitted to play/compete (by the club's rules) but one with a CONGU Club handicap of 29 who isn't. ...

That the one who elected to stay off 28 figures in the CSS calculation and the other, correctly handicapped, wouldn't is a separate anomaly.

All of the above is why clubs should fully and completely encompass the system for what it is the way Rosecott's club have (when CONGU has fudged things and left them this mess - if they had just introduced Cat 5 things would have been so, so, simple and clubs would be left with the one option that they are used to dealing with over general, and specific, competition eligibility).

 

[Crazyface]

I'm off to sunny Tiegnmouth for a round of golf but when I'm back I can, if required send you an email from CONGU that disputes this.

Maybe you can, but our member, fundy and rulefan think otherwise. I just want to know either way as I think it is a good idea but there is no point implementing it if it prevents them playing in club comps. (I'm not sure I'd be able to do this as we have members who think 18 is more than enough..idiots. BUT it may improve our take up on comps as we don't get many entries from people on 24+ H/C's. Maybe this is because they are on 28+ and really need to be on 36 to give them a fighting chance.)
So come on, let have the full correct answer from CONGU !

 

[rulefan]

Their scores will not be included in the CSS calculation in the same way as Cat 4's were not included up to the end of last year. Their handicaps will be adjusted against CSS though.

That is not correct.

CONGU Club handicappers are not included in the CSS calculation as you say BUT any handicap adjustment is made individually for each player against the SSS. A completely separate calculation.

The fact that in may or may not be a Qualifier is irrelevant.

There is no point in having club handicaps if they can't play in club competitions! I suppose clubs can impose handicap limits for certain board competitions.

Is is entirely up to the club
a) whether they permit simultaneous play
b) how they distribute prizes
c) whether they organise competitions for CONGU Club Handicappers only
d) handicap limits can only

Decision 1(j)

Q. May an Affiliated Club impose a limit of handicap to some of their Qualifying Competitions e.g. insist that a player with a Playing Handicap of 27 competes from a handicap of 18?
A. This is contrary to the spirit of the UHS. Players must be allowed to play from their established handicap.


The player must play off full handicap and the correct Playing Handicap must be used when calculating the Competition Scratch Score. The organising Committee may then adjust the scores for the purpose of awarding prizes for the competition.

 

[duncan mackie]

Maybe you can, but our member, fundy and rulefan think otherwise. I just want to know either way as I think it is a good idea but there is no point implementing it if it prevents them playing in club comps. (I'm not sure I'd be able to do this as we have members who think 18 is more than enough..idiots. BUT it may improve our take up on comps as we don't get many entries from people on 24+ H/C's. Maybe this is because they are on 28+ and really need to be on 36 to give them a fighting chance.)
So come on, let have the full correct answer from CONGU !

The correct answer will depend on the question!

Any difference of opinion posted in this thread seems to come down to the definition of 'play in' - that's all. I believe the following to be correct, and if fundy or rulefan disagree it would help to know in what way.

1.Players without a CONGU handicap will have no impact on the calculation of a CSS.
2. Players with both CONGU (c), and without, may play - it's up to the individual club to define eligibility for competing (winning)
3. Players with CONGU Club handicaps may play in their clubs Q events - it's up to the individual clubs to define eligibility for competing.

There is nothing in the relevant definitions that precludes the involvement of players without CONGU handicaps in Q competitions that I can see (Qualifying Competition and Competition Play Conditions being the obvious ones - the definition of Member would seem to support the right of any club member to 'play in' Q events subject to the club committees eligibility requirements).

Edit - in fact decision 2 (d) in the decisions makes it clear that a player may play in a Q competition as a marker and submit a supplemental card.....which seems to confirm that who can actually play in a Q completion isn't the question.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

I can understand if some players are nervous about the amount of shots given to someone on the new handicaps. However, most clubs operate a divisional approach to medals and stablefords which should group plays of similar abilities and allowing their handicaps to flex.

 

[rulefan]

The above is correct.

However, just to take the aspect of 'play in'.

In the world of CONGU there are two elements of a competition. Handicaps and prizes.

CONGU's Qualifying Competitions are only concerned with the former. Competitions organised specifically for CONGU Club Handicap holders (on a measured course) are also concerned with handicaps. Prizes are entirely a matter for the club.

The Qualifying status of a competition is only of relevance to CONGU Handicap holders (whether 'c' or not).
With a club's permission CONGU Club Handicap holders and players without any handicap may 'play in' the event.
The former are playing for their personal handicap.

Any prizes or opportunity to progress to later knockout rounds are at the discretion of the club and may or may not depend on handicap type (if any) and or status (if applicable).

 

[fundy]

The correct answer will depend on the question!

Any difference of opinion posted in this thread seems to come down to the definition of 'play in' - that's all. I believe the following to be correct, and if fundy or rulefan disagree it would help to know in what way.

1.Players without a CONGU handicap will have no impact on the calculation of a CSS.
2. Players with both CONGU (c), and without, may play - it's up to the individual club to define eligibility for competing (winning)
3. Players with CONGU Club handicaps may play in their clubs Q events - it's up to the individual clubs to define eligibility for competing.

There is nothing in the relevant definitions that precludes the involvement of players without CONGU handicaps in Q competitions that I can see (Qualifying Competition and Competition Play Conditions being the obvious ones - the definition of Member would seem to support the right of any club member to 'play in' Q events subject to the club committees eligibility requirements).

Edit - in fact decision 2 (d) in the decisions makes it clear that a player may play in a Q competition as a marker and submit a supplemental card.....which seems to confirm that who can actually play in a Q completion isn't the question.

Nothing I disagree with there at all.

The bit I mentioned earlier was that what we had been told wasnt allowed was that someone with a Congu Club handicap say 33 couldnt play off 28 in a qualifying comp if thats what the limit was capped at ie its one or the other and cant have both

 

[Crazyface]

Nothing I disagree with there at all.

The bit I mentioned earlier was that what we had been told wasnt allowed was that someone with a Congu Club handicap say 33 couldnt play off 28 in a qualifying comp if thats what the limit was capped at ie its one or the other and cant have both

And this is what the member at our place understood about the rule BUT

TADA !!!!!!

The Congu Club Handicap is not classified as "C" (competitive) however, Congu/England Golf actively encourages clubs to allow "Congu Club Handicap" golfers to play in Club competitions.


It may be that a club can by using a combination of handicap categories and the "C" status in their Conditions of Competition can determine who is eligible to enter each competition. i.e. for say the "Club Championship" or "Major Trophy" competitions these may be restricted to "C" status handicaps only, but other competitions, throught the year, should be opened up to "Non C/Congu Club" handicap members.


If you have sufficient numbers of "Congu Club " handicap members, consider running their own specific
9/18 hole competitions. when/if you are running "C" competitions days only, so they can at least play and mix with the other members to help they integrate into the club.


Their handicap, like the Congu handicap members will be automatically adjusted, up or down, but against SSS not CSS.


Their scores will not be used to calculate the CSS.


regards


Danny Finlay
Regional Handicap Advisor
England Golf



THE answer.

Apologies to everyone who knew this already.