Competition Standard Scratch

[JezzE]

the line he continues to hit out with is that NRs dont count and thats why its so low as so many people NR.

The CSS debate wil continue ad infinitum, but personally I think it does a good and essential job.

But the above is a common misconception and just not true - all NRs count for CSS calculation purposes, and clearly for those looking for it to either stay the same or go up, they're all good news and helping to increase the chances of that happening

By the way, windy again down at RSG this morning and if it were to stay like this, I don't think the winning score would be much under par. But I understand the forecast is for better weather and less wind, so don't put your house on just such an outcome...

 

[USER1999]

You could quite easily have two courses where the SSS is the same, but one is easier to play (for some golfers).

If there are a fair few doglegs, and they all go the same, left to right, then a natural drawer of the ball would find it tougher than a fader. The fader would think it was an easier course, and wonder why the drawer struggled.

 

[ScienceBoy]

If it wasnt for a CSS of 74 off the blue tees (par 72) I would not have had my handicap hacked down to 12...

I think CSS is a good thing, who wants a cut anyway?

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I don't think I need to add much to this. Imurg and i share the same views so he has said most of it.

I will add however, there is a comp on Saturday at our place that i can't play in. However, lets assume I could and that it is a beautiful summer day and shoot 79 for a net 69 against an SSS of 70. That should get me a 0.2 cut but CSS comes in at 69 so no cut for hawkeye.

Now go back to the scenario where I can't play so i call homer and sundance and arrange to meet them on Sunday and submit a supplementary card. The weather on Sunday is the same as Saturday and the pins are in the same position. Again I shoot 79, nett 69 against a SSS of 70. A nice little 0.2 cut for hawkeye.

If someone can explain to me how my 79 on Sunday is different to my 79 on Saturday i might change my mind about css but until then it's a nonsense.

 

[rosecott]

I don't think I need to add much to this. Imurg and i share the same views so he has said most of it.

I will add however, there is a comp on Saturday at our place that i can't play in. However, lets assume I could and that it is a beautiful summer day and shoot 79 for a net 69 against an SSS of 70. That should get me a 0.2 cut but CSS comes in at 69 so no cut for hawkeye.

Now go back to the scenario where I can't play so i call homer and sundance and arrange to meet them on Sunday and submit a supplementary card. The weather on Sunday is the same as Saturday and the pins are in the same position. Again I shoot 79, nett 69 against a SSS of 70. A nice little 0.2 cut for hawkeye.

If someone can explain to me how my 79 on Sunday is different to my 79 on Saturday i might change my mind about css but until then it's a nonsense.

If only golf was that simple and predictable!

Your Saturday CSS, for a variey of other possible reasons such as wind from a different direction, could easily have been same as SSS or 1 or more higher.

Would your playing standard on the Sunday necessarily be the same as that had you played on Saturday?

Too many variables - but CSS has the advantage of assessing the average performance of a large group, thereby going some way to lessening the effects of the variables.

 

[Marko77]

By the way, windy again down at RSG this morning and if it were to stay like this, I don't think the winning score would be much under par. But I understand the forecast is for better weather and less wind, so don't put your house on just such an outcome...

At least their not worried about the CSS or their handicaps lol

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I don't think I need to add much to this. Imurg and i share the same views so he has said most of it.

I will add however, there is a comp on Saturday at our place that i can't play in. However, lets assume I could and that it is a beautiful summer day and shoot 79 for a net 69 against an SSS of 70. That should get me a 0.2 cut but CSS comes in at 69 so no cut for hawkeye.

Now go back to the scenario where I can't play so i call homer and sundance and arrange to meet them on Sunday and submit a supplementary card. The weather on Sunday is the same as Saturday and the pins are in the same position. Again I shoot 79, nett 69 against a SSS of 70. A nice little 0.2 cut for hawkeye.

If someone can explain to me how my 79 on Sunday is different to my 79 on Saturday i might change my mind about css but until then it's a nonsense.

If only golf was that simple and predictable!

Your Saturday CSS, for a variey of other possible reasons such as wind from a different direction, could easily have been same as SSS or 1 or more higher.

Would your playing standard on the Sunday necessarily be the same as that had you played on Saturday?

Too many variables - but CSS has the advantage of assessing the average performance of a large group, thereby going some way to lessening the effects of the variables.

Of course there are variables but I think you missed the point of my post which is, if conditions on two days are the same and I shoot the same score, why should I get cut on one day but not the other.

Why should someone else's score affect mine? I still have to get my ball in the hole in as few shots as possible, I still have to drive well, hit my irons well and chip and putt well, what everyone else does is totally irrelevant to what I actually do, it doesn't directly affect me, in fact, I don't even know what they are doing. Strokeplay golf is a solo game, you might go round in groups but it is a solo game, you against the course. So why at the end is my h'cap affected by what everyone else does when they had no effect on me scoring what I did?

It doesn't make sense

 

[bobmac]

I think they look at it and think if everyone has scored well the weather and course conditions must be easy and easy flags.
Hence the CSS goes down.
If the wind blows and the flags are tucked away and the field scores badly, then the CSS goes up.
Hence your 69 on a nice day with easy flags wasn't as good as the 69 on the windy day with tough flags.

 

[Imurg]

But Hawkeye's point is that the course was the same Saturday and Sunday, the weather exactly the same, the score exactly the same but one card gets a cut and the other doesn't.

 

[rosecott]

OK. It's a problem with Supplementaries. It's good that they are on offer by CONGU/EGU for the best of reasons but it's clearly impossible to include the option of CSS variations to SSS for reasons such as weather, pin positions etc. for what is likely to be one or two scorecards. Would you then scrap Supplementaries?

 

[Imurg]

No, scrap CSS.

I still don't get why it's such a big deal if the course is playing difficult and you don't score well - you go up.
If the course plays easy and youdo score well - you get cut.
Why bring the variables into the equation in the first place? It'll even itself out over the course of a year.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

No, scrap CSS.

I still don't get why it's such a big deal if the course is playing difficult and you don't score well - you go up.
If the course plays easy and youdo score well - you get cut.
Why bring the variables into the equation in the first place? It'll even itself out over the course of a year.

^
^
Exactly this

 

[jammydodger]

In this case all you'll end up with is everyone playing comps in dry, calm conditions. You get to the club and its raining or windy and no-one will enter the comp that day. Is that what you want ?

 

[Region3]

Shoot the best score you can and let everything else take care of itself. It's only a game.

As for knowing what you need to buffer, you might argue that we shouldn't have to, but I always assume that CSS will be 1 under SSS and once my handicap has gone (usually somewhere between 12-14) I aim for nett 73 to guarantee buffer. If it's higher then it's a nice surprise.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

In this case all you'll end up with is everyone playing comps in dry, calm conditions. You get to the club and its raining or windy and no-one will enter the comp that day. Is that what you want ?

Are you honestly saying that people only enter comps if it's wet or windy because of CSS?

 

[Imurg]

In this case all you'll end up with is everyone playing comps in dry, calm conditions. You get to the club and its raining or windy and no-one will enter the comp that day. Is that what you want ?

Are you honestly saying that people only enter comps if it's wet or windy because of CSS?

If CSS is going up it means many are not scoring well. They're going up .1 whether you have CSS or not.

Relying on CSS to maintain your handicap is sad. Play better.

 

[jammydodger]

I would say if people know that the css wont be going up and its raining and windy then yes , a lot will not bother entering the comp. Especially the lower cat 1 golfers who have to work hard to maintain h/c and wont be giving up their 0.1's so easily. Think what you like , but its hard enough to get them out in a lot of comps already never mind if you're not even going to have css.

 

[jammydodger]

In this case all you'll end up with is everyone playing comps in dry, calm conditions. You get to the club and its raining or windy and no-one will enter the comp that day. Is that what you want ?

Are you honestly saying that people only enter comps if it's wet or windy because of CSS?

I'm saying that if the weather is bad and there's no chance of css going up that day then a lot of the better golfers wont play the comp. Fact. If you one day get to cat 1 you'll realise how hard it is to maintain , they wont be giving up their hard earned 0.1's so easily. Fact.

 

[JezzE]

Shoot the best score you can and let everything else take care of itself. It's only a game.

As for knowing what you need to buffer, you might argue that we shouldn't have to, but I always assume that CSS will be 1 under SSS and once my handicap has gone (usually somewhere between 12-14) I aim for nett 73 to guarantee buffer. If it's higher then it's a nice surprise.

These are probably the wisest words I've read on this subject - in other words, those are the rules, you know the rules, so just get on with it!

The one thing people who moan about CSS tend to forget I think is that it's supposed to be part of a system that allows a degree of parity among all golf courses. If you genuinely think you're being wronged by CSS going down, then logically you should be shooting better than your handicap when you go elsewhere as you must by definition feel your handicap should be one shot better than it is. Unless this is the case, then I'm not sure what the problem is really.

I guess we'd all love to be one shot better than we are, and naturally feel aggrieved when we appear to get stung by CSS, but I accepted a long time ago that I'm not quite as good as I would like to be or perhaps thought I was, and until I start regularly playing better than my handicap in away comps, then the system is probably working from my perspective.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

In this case all you'll end up with is everyone playing comps in dry, calm conditions. You get to the club and its raining or windy and no-one will enter the comp that day. Is that what you want ?

Are you honestly saying that people only enter comps if it's wet or windy because of CSS?

I'm saying that if the weather is bad and there's no chance of css going up that day then a lot of the better golfers wont play the comp. Fact. If you one day get to cat 1 you'll realise how hard it is to maintain , they wont be giving up their hard earned 0.1's so easily. Fact.

I don't suppose I'll ever get to Cat1 but if I did I'd play in any weather as I do now. I hadn't realised all Cat1s were fair weather golfers

I'm really not looking for an argument here, but whatever h'cap you play at it should be difficult. I dare say if I go out in wet and windy weather there's a fair chance I'll go up 0.1 but is that a reason for me not to play? A lot of Cat1 golfers probably work no harder to get to their h'cap than I do to get to mine, they are just better than me, so what makes their 0.1s any more precious than mine. If they are good enough to be Cat1 then they're good enough to get their 0.1 back in better conditions, granted they only get 0.1 per shot but I would have thought, that being the case, and given that CSS rarely goes above SSS(it's done so once at our place this year), that Cat1s would be more bothered about CSS going down below SSS than the rest of us. After all, it's hard enough to get cut off Cat1 down there without the goalposts moving because people happen to play well.

Scrapping CSS would therefore I'd have thought, be more beneficial to a Cat1 golfer as it would make getting cut easier and therefore make the 0.1s lost in bad weather easier to reclaim