D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
Aaah I think you have confused us. The term 'private club' generally refers to a club owned by the members whereas a club owned by an individual or company is referred to as a proprietary club.
Club's compensation package for lockdown 3.
- Thread starter Kennysarmy
- Start date
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
That is my point.
Few of us know at the start of the Club year just how many rounds we are likely to play.
Circumstances such as the weather, our own availability or this year a pandemic, change.
As far as I am concerned I sign up for a year's membership and lockdown hasn't altered that.
I wouldn't like to think that a proprietary club was profiteering from the current situation but equally I don't think that members are automatically entitled to a refund as a result of something over which the club has no control.
Kennysarmy
Newbie
They changed the rules.
Current full members up until 31st March could leave with no notice. From 1st April you're agreeing to pay for the full year, either in one payment or split monthly. Like I say, I was within my rights to have cancelled last weekend and not paid my March DD but didn't feel that was in the spirit of being a member and as previously a compensation offer included a shop voucher I presumed and hoped I'd get my March ( and maybe more) returned in vouchers.
Kennysarmy
Newbie
Sorry for confusion. ??
evemccc
Well-known member
Why have some clubs given rebates for the first lockdown from the end of March 2020 - mid May 2020....yet it seems on here like many are refusing to for Lockdown 2 and 3 which is November, January, February and March?
It seems that the rationale that is mostly given is that clubs have lost revenue from green fee income, bar and venue-hire...but that was more true for the first lockdown was it not, than the rest of the year?
Winter golf does not generate visitors anything like the rate of spring and summer...so really, how many green-fees will have been lost in January and February 2021, compared to the usual green-fee income generated most years every January and February? I doubt there is a big difference, because few casual (green-fee) golfers play in winter with rain, sleet, hail and mud.
Almost all clubs will probably have seen an explosion of new members this year, paying annual memberships....and my club has had many more members using the course than normal and importantly using the bar during the summer. People at my club talked of how much busier the bar was during the relatively covid-free summer and early autumn months compared to normal...
And yet, there is no word of any rebate or anything like money on the club card. I find it hard to believe my club has not made a lot more money through a lot of new memberships and a busier bar this year, than in any supposed green-fee loss in January and February. And the grass was growing in March April and May, and a higher proportion of the clubs annual green-fees would have been lost then...yet members got a rebate then, but not now..
A cynic would say it's because it was right before renewal time..hence the lockdown 1 rebate..
It seems that the rationale that is mostly given is that clubs have lost revenue from green fee income, bar and venue-hire...but that was more true for the first lockdown was it not, than the rest of the year?
Winter golf does not generate visitors anything like the rate of spring and summer...so really, how many green-fees will have been lost in January and February 2021, compared to the usual green-fee income generated most years every January and February? I doubt there is a big difference, because few casual (green-fee) golfers play in winter with rain, sleet, hail and mud.
Almost all clubs will probably have seen an explosion of new members this year, paying annual memberships....and my club has had many more members using the course than normal and importantly using the bar during the summer. People at my club talked of how much busier the bar was during the relatively covid-free summer and early autumn months compared to normal...
And yet, there is no word of any rebate or anything like money on the club card. I find it hard to believe my club has not made a lot more money through a lot of new memberships and a busier bar this year, than in any supposed green-fee loss in January and February. And the grass was growing in March April and May, and a higher proportion of the clubs annual green-fees would have been lost then...yet members got a rebate then, but not now..
A cynic would say it's because it was right before renewal time..hence the lockdown 1 rebate..
D
Deleted Member 1156
Guest
I think a lot depends on the type of course. Links courses often have lots of visitors in the winter when parkland courses become unplayable. My previous course was built on chalk and always bone dry, the visitor green fee was higher in winter than summer because they used to get so many visitors when other courses closed.Why have some clubs given rebates for the first lockdown from the end of March 2020 - mid May 2020....yet it seems on here like many are refusing to for Lockdown 2 and 3 which is November, January, February and March?
It seems that the rationale that is mostly given is that clubs have lost revenue from green fee income, bar and venue-hire...but that was more true for the first lockdown was it not, than the rest of the year?
Winter golf does not generate visitors anything like the rate of spring and summer...so really, how many green-fees will have been lost in January and February 2021, compared to the usual green-fee income generated most years every January and February? I doubt there is a big difference, because few casual (green-fee) golfers play in winter with rain, sleet, hail and mud.
Almost all clubs will probably have seen an explosion of new members this year, paying annual memberships....and my club has had many more members using the course than normal and importantly using the bar during the summer. People at my club talked of how much busier the bar was during the relatively covid-free summer and early autumn months compared to normal...
And yet, there is no word of any rebate or anything like money on the club card. I find it hard to believe my club has not made a lot more money through a lot of new memberships and a busier bar this year, than in any supposed green-fee loss in January and February. And the grass was growing in March April and May, and a higher proportion of the clubs annual green-fees would have been lost then...yet members got a rebate then, but not now..
A cynic would say it's because it was right before renewal time..hence the lockdown 1 rebate..
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
I agree no member should be automatically entitled to a refund, but all the reasons you mention for not playing, weather, personal circumstances etc are year in year out, nobody could or would consider a pandemic, this is an exceptional reason and hence why I say both parties, Club and member, should be flexible.
I don’t think any propietary clubs could accussed of profiteering, but if they furloughed staff, had an increase in memberships and visitors whilst not buying bar stock or catering supplies then the likelihood is, they will be in profit this year and it’s how they decide to use that finance and how they communicate with the members that could make a difference.
r0wly86
Head Pro
Contractually the clubs could claim the contract has been frustrated, as the the closure has been made by an act of parliament. Similar thing happened in WW2 when steel manufacturers were ordered by the government to provide steel to the armed forces and so could not fill commercial contracts. If a contract is frustrated it means that the contract has ended through something beyond the parties control and so neither party is liable to complete there side of the contract.
We have seen (though going through the courts still) that a lot of business insurance will not pay out in the case of pandemics and so clubs could be financially very badly off at the moment.
A lot will come down to PR and members relations, if a club has acted in bad faith and nearby club has acted well, then they could lose members to them.
I would question a person above who says £100 isn't a lot, we don't know the financial situations of everyone especially during a pandemic where businesses have been struggling, people may be furloughed and so £100 could mean quite a bit more
We have seen (though going through the courts still) that a lot of business insurance will not pay out in the case of pandemics and so clubs could be financially very badly off at the moment.
A lot will come down to PR and members relations, if a club has acted in bad faith and nearby club has acted well, then they could lose members to them.
I would question a person above who says £100 isn't a lot, we don't know the financial situations of everyone especially during a pandemic where businesses have been struggling, people may be furloughed and so £100 could mean quite a bit more
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
I rather suspect that my difficulty arises from only looking at this through the eyes of a someone who has always belonged to Members' Clubs.
There is no contract involved as annual subscriptions are required merely to retain membership and, as a result, part ownership of the Club.
The financial objective of such a club is to cover costs with hopefully a little over for the "rainy day" fund.
Those members with responsibility for the financial health of the Club should consider what the costs will be going forward and, at the same time, what happened during the previous twelve months. Only at that stage can they make any decision on rebates etc;
Much has been said about the benefits to clubs of utilising the furlough scheme and it has undoubtedly helped.
However, taking my own Club as an example, not all staff were placed on furlough.
During Lockdown 1 three of six greenstaff were off. The course still had to be maintained ready for reopening. No greenstaff have been furloughed during the current closure as it has coincided with a period when bigger projects have to be addressed.
All bar staff were off but then we weren't selling anything during that time and sales were down once the bar could open due to ongoing restrictions.
Catering is franchised so cost neutral.
Manager and his assistant continued to be employed albeit on reduced benefits.
Other costs such as rates and insurances etc; continued.
I don't know how typical we are but I don't suspect we are that out of line and if so, it can be seen that clubs are unlikely to have saved as much as some might think.
Bunkermagnet
Journeyman Pro
So what you are really saying is you were going to leave the club anyway, but gambled on staying an extra month to better return when you left leaving you quids in.
As I see it, you played the market and lost. Theres no point moaning about it.
Kennysarmy
Newbie
I really don't see it like that sorry. I never expected to get the money back in cash, but ultimately I've paid for 3 months for a service that could not be provided and had hoped as in Lockdown 1 there would be an option to be offered a pro shop voucher. Just disappointed that the only "winners" seem to be the members who are staying and the owner who is probably massively in profit - nearly all staff furloughed and still raking it in in membership direct debits.
Robster59
Tour Rookie
I think you're being a little simplistic in your viewpoint. Nearly all staff have been furloughed but the course still needs looking after, there is a significant loss of revenues from visitors, functions, bar, etc. Our club is run pretty well but we still have a lot of outgoings even when the members aren't on the course. General maintenance, refurbing old buildings, other work on the course. The members expect the course to be up and ready when the furlough ends. That means the course has to be maintained every day. At the "worst" point we had furloughed all but two of our green staff but they were still out there every day having to cut the grass, put treatment down (another cost), and that's a lot of land to do. For our club the members income is obviously of great importance but a lot of other income streams have been lost.
Bunkermagnet
Journeyman Pro
You can argue that, but your comment here "and as previously a compensation offer included a shop voucher I presumed and hoped I'd get my March ( and maybe more) returned in vouchers. " says to me you were gambling on getting more back than you outlayed however the return was made.
3puttpercy
Newbie
I think "Force majeure" must be considered.
Which essentially free both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstances beyond the control of both parties,
such as war, strike, riot, crime, EPIDEMIC, sudden LEGAL changes, or an event described by the legal term act of God, prevents one or both parties
from fulfilling their obligation under the contract.
In practice, most "force majeure" clauses do not excuse a party's non-performance entirely, but only suspend it for the duration of the force majeure.
Which essentially free both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstances beyond the control of both parties,
such as war, strike, riot, crime, EPIDEMIC, sudden LEGAL changes, or an event described by the legal term act of God, prevents one or both parties
from fulfilling their obligation under the contract.
In practice, most "force majeure" clauses do not excuse a party's non-performance entirely, but only suspend it for the duration of the force majeure.
D
Deleted member 16999
Guest
Did you take on any new members? There are Clubs up here in the NE reported to be taking on anywhere between 50-100 new members, we took on 30 full members plus over 40 on a “summer membership” scheme.
Obviously there will be winners and losers (from your Club has done, I think yous maybe winners) which goes back to my initial point of Clubs considering individual cases.
GB72
Money List Winner
It will be interesting to see the impact of this lockdown ending. At the end of lockdown 1, golf was pretty much all that was open sports wise and you really needed to be a member to play due to 2 balls etc. Now there is going to be more supply due to 4 balls being allowed and there is going to be more sports permitted at the same time, will be interesting to see if golf continues to see the same increases in participation.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
We gained a fair number of new members but are budgeting for a net reduction in those numbers this year as there will be those whose jobs disappear once furlough comes to an end as well as those who find that they have significantly less time for playing once they return to work or WFH arrangements change.
Blue in Munich
Crocked Professional Yeti Impersonator
Whilst it will to a degree depend on personal circumstances, given that England Golf reckoned the average annual subs in 2018 were £901, members on average are giving up a little over a month's fees to secure the future of their club if they let it slide. That doesn't seem a lot & I think most probably can afford it, although a large number probably don't want to afford it, which is something completely different.
Kennysarmy
Newbie
I'd outlaid £77.50 each month in January, February and March. I was not looking to be reimbursed more than I'd paid. Just a fair offer of refund. To me it's not right that the refund is linked to another year's membership. My fees were paid in the 2020/21 season, when the course was closed.
If you booked a flight which was cancelled and you asked for your money back and the only offer was another flight a year later when you could not go, would you be happy with that?
jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
This is probably only partly true surely the governments Rates Reduction Scheme scheme comes in to play. We get a rate reduction even in normal years when the club is closed due to the weather.
