Ched Evans

[Papas1982]

The conviction tells me all I need to know re consent. I agree there was, and probably is going forward, a real ignorance on the respective danger of the situation.

We're never going to agree on the conviction. I, maybe blindly, put my faith in the jury system, which in the vast majority of cases is shown to be robust.

You seem to believe, she was drunk, couldn't consent, and that's a defence


I've just read Sheffield United have been rumoured to have offered him a 2 year 500k contract

35 goals in 50 apps before conviction meant this would always happen. Lee Hughes and marlon king show that. Of course they have careers and if there were on a different profession they'd still work again I'm sure.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

i would suggest the difference being that she got a taxi with one and the other followed. Suggestion there may have been consent for him?

Again its suggestions as opposed to definite proof - both the men said she gave consent

imo innocent til proven guilty. If he proves his innocent then I guess poeple will have to apologise. But his lawyers saying they're confident means little to me. Most people that go through an appeal tend to suggest that. Lots of people have appealed numerous cases when all its done is waste money.

I think the implication that she was so hammered she can't rememeber is dangerous ground. Imagine there was video evidence of them raping her, but because she couldn't rememebr IT wouldn't count?

Its not an implication though - she said she couldnt remember ? That appears to be through drink

she was so drunk they literally walked over her in a pizza shop. That imo is predatory at least. It looks to me they blatantly took advantage and her being too drunk to recall saying no doesnt prove innocence for me.

Yet she was coherent enough to remember that she left the pizza behind and went back to get it ? as seen in the CCTV plus many other actions that night

And her not remember giving consent shouldnt be enough to prove guilt ?

Remember this is the same lady that was tweeting about how she was going to celebrate with her winnings

 

[Papas1982]

Again its suggestions as opposed to definite proof - both the men said she gave consent



Its not an implication though - she said she couldnt remember ? That appears to be through drink


Yet she was coherent enough to remember that she left the pizza behind and went back to get it ? as seen in the CCTV plus many other actions that night

And her not remember giving consent shouldnt be enough to prove guilt ?

Remember this is the same lady that was tweeting about how she was going to celebrate with her winnings

Them saying she agreed is hardly proof either. They could have concocted a story. Again there's no proof of that. But as im of the opinion they did rape her, it wouldn't be difficult to sort a story.

Rememeber your pizza and quickly grabbing it is not the same as forgetting bits of a night. I've had many nights where ive not managed to rememebr most of ot. But I've remembered to get a coat from the lockers etc.

celebrating her damages? Her actions after the case should have no bearing on what happened.

There at the very least were predators who took advantage. Althiugh I can't say I've ever gotten a taxi seperately froma woman who's wanted sex with me?

Her not knowing if she gave consent isn't her only defemce imo. She went back with one (not guilty). Another joined (guilty). That makes sense to me. Whilst others simply wanted to video it for a laugh. I'd suggest that shiws more of their type of character and capabilities than her celebrating.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Them saying she agreed is hardly proof either. They could have concocted a story. Again there's no proof of that. But as im of the opinion they did rape her, it wouldn't be difficult to sort a story.

There is no proof of that you are right - and they could have concocted the story but again thats their word against hers isnt it ? There is doubt there surely - there is also a night porter who heard the noises of sex going on inside from both men and the lady.

Rememeber your pizza and quickly grabbing it is not the same as forgetting bits of a night. I've had many nights where ive not managed to rememebr most of ot. But I've remembered to get a coat from the lockers etc.

There is a video of her arriving in the taxi and she is walking fine and there is many other actions she was able to do with no problems

celebrating her damages? Her actions after the case should have no bearing on what happened.

Of course they should have a bearing - they possibly could point to a motive of her reasons behind having sex with a footballer - for the money and fame

There at the very least were predators who took advantage. Althiugh I can't say I've ever gotten a taxi seperately froma woman who's wanted sex with me?

Only have to read the stories over the years of the things that footballers have got up to and also the young ladies that have got involved for a bit of fame and money so yes it is possible that a young lade goes off with another and his mate arrives ten mins later and also joins in - have seen it happen with a work mate out in Cyprus with his flatmate and a girl.

Her not knowing if she gave consent isn't her only defemce imo. She went back with one (not guilty). Another joined (guilty). That makes sense to me. Whilst others simply wanted to video it for a laugh. I'd suggest that shiws more of their type of character and capabilities than her celebrating.

Again why does someone joining in make him guilty ?

They said she was too drunk to give consent and they took advantage of her - so was she sober enough to give consent to one and then ten mins later not coherent enough to give consent to the other

Yes trying to film it etc is acts of stupidity but again that doesnt make Evans guilty of rape

Have you read the website ? Have a quick read - it certainly opens up a lot questions

 

[Papas1982]

There is no proof of that you are right - and they could have concocted the story but again thats their word against hers isnt it ? There is doubt there surely - there is also a night porter who heard the noises of sex going on inside from both men and the lady.



There is a video of her arriving in the taxi and she is walking fine and there is many other actions she was able to do with no problems



Of course they should have a bearing - they possibly could point to a motive of her reasons behind having sex with a footballer - for the money and fame



Only have to read the stories over the years of the things that footballers have got up to and also the young ladies that have got involved for a bit of fame and money so yes it is possible that a young lade goes off with another and his mate arrives ten mins later and also joins in - have seen it happen with a work mate out in Cyprus with his flatmate and a girl.



Again why does someone joining in make him guilty ?

They said she was too drunk to give consent and they took advantage of her - so was she sober enough to give consent to one and then ten mins later not coherent enough to give consent to the other

Yes trying to film it etc is acts of stupidity but again that doesnt make Evans guilty of rape

Have you read the website ? Have a quick read - it certainly opens up a lot questions

irrespectibe of the points they make on their website. Based purely from there perspective I'm sure. With have a judicial system. I've chosen to believe it. I accept that some girls look for fame and that they can cry rape when they realise they've been used just like they were doing to the men. But I've seen many cases thrown out when that happens. They've been convicted so are guilty. Nothing will change that opinion just as nothing will change yours.

Mo think the biggest sticking block I have seen many campaigners show is not what he has done. But the complete lack of remorse shown for any of his actions.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

irrespectibe of the points they make on their website. Based purely from there perspective I'm sure. With have a judicial system. I've chosen to believe it. I accept that some girls look for fame and that they can cry rape when they realise they've been used just like they were doing to the men. But I've seen many cases thrown out when that happens. They've been convicted so are guilty. Nothing will change that opinion just as nothing will change yours.

Mo think the biggest sticking block I have seen many campaigners show is not what he has done. But the complete lack of remorse shown for any of his actions.

People wont show remorse if they 100% believe they are innocent

And whilst he has been found guilty - reading all the information given i can certainly see a lot of doubt within the whole case to be open minded to the possibility that this could be a wrong conviction ( and it wouldnt be the first time )

 

[Blue in Munich]

It's obvious that some on here have an agenda


http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...ng-a-rape-conviction&p=1133481&highlight=Rape
You can't use his own website as evidence for a miscarriage of justice, but even with the 'facts' on there you get an idea of why one was convicted and the the other not.

12 jury members found him guilty & that's good enough for most people. Are you really suggesting they found him guilty because they wanted to get home for their tea??

Having seen similar be suggested in a jury room, albeit not in a case of this severity, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Papas1982]

People wont show remorse if they 100% believe they are innocent

And whilst he has been found guilty - reading all the information given i can certainly see a lot of doubt within the whole case to be open minded to the possibility that this could be a wrong conviction ( and it wouldnt be the first time )

Yes there have Mis wrongful convcuitobs. But the correct ones give me more confidence in the system being right not wrong.

Its nit not a case of me being closed minded be used I don't believe him. It's a case of trusting our system. Did they release all the details of what made them convict him. If not then you're veliveing his innocence purely on his suggestions. Or you simply have another reason to not trust the judicial systems.

 

[Blue in Munich]

The conviction tells me all I need to know re consent. I agree there was, and probably is going forward, a real ignorance on the respective danger of the situation.

We're never going to agree on the conviction. I, maybe blindly, put my faith in the jury system, which in the vast majority of cases is shown to be robust.

You seem to believe, she was drunk, couldn't consent, and that's a defence


I've just read Sheffield United have been rumoured to have offered him a 2 year 500k contract

All well & good unless you are the victim in the case of one that goes wrong, and I would consider I've seen more than a few of those.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Having seen similar be suggested in a jury room, albeit not in a case of this severity, it wouldn't surprise me.

I would guess that a lot see jury service as a pain in their rear end and would like it over and done with as soon as possible

My brother was on a jury for a domestic abuse case - he found that some wanted the verdict straight away , some had already decided the verdict before it even started and some just followed along with stronger people - that appears just a snapshot of human life.

 

[User20205]

So the ched Evans case is going to bring the downfall of a legal system that has been around for about 3000 years.

I would suggest the jury system is only as strong as the evidence presented to it. Either you believe in the rule of law, and support it's mechanisms or you don't. If you do he's guilty, and currently isn't deserving of a high profile career in football.

The fact that the jury system sometimes is flawed isn't a reason to doubt his conviction, if there was a glaring mistake it would have gone to appeal, as other cases have done.

What gets me about the campaign & this thread, is that it's all about his rights to get his life back. What about the rights of the victim?

She was drunk, liked pizza and had sex with his mate, therefore she's making it up??

 

[Hacker Khan]

Funny how most golfers seem perfectly happy to accept rules/verdicts like dress codes imposed by some a committee and say if people don't like them then they should not join. Yet when it comes to a verdict that has been through what is generally seen as one of the best justice systems in the world then they are not so sure of it. Mostly based on what the person who was convicted of rape says on their web site.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So the ched Evans case is going to bring the downfall of a legal system that has been around for about 3000 years.

Not at all - just realising that its not 100% flawless because

I would suggest the jury system is only as strong as the evidence presented to it. Either you believe in the rule of law, and support it's mechanisms or you don't. If you do he's guilty, and currently isn't deserving of a high profile career in football.

The jury is also as strong as the 12 people - he has been convicted as being guilty by the law - but as suggested it appears there could be doubt on his guilt.

The fact that the jury system sometimes is flawed isn't a reason to doubt his conviction, if there was a glaring mistake it would have gone to appeal, as other cases have done.

What gets me about the campaign & this thread, is that it's all about his rights to get his life back. What about the rights of the victim?

She was drunk, liked pizza and had sex with his mate, therefore she's making it up??

I dont think anyone has suggested she made anything up - from what i understand she just cant remember and that is the evidence used to convict him it appears.

yes she has rights - but why would she be boasting about spending compensation money on cars and holidays for her and her mate ?
Why was the fact she had previously complained of rape after not remembering what happened dismissed by the judge ?

It just doesnt seem an open and shut case to me when i read up on it - seems to be a lot of doubt and a lot of holes unless there is something that isnt being told by someone ?

An appeal was turned down because no new evidence came to light - they wanted a re trial which was turned down - again not sure why they wouldnt allow a re trial - is it normal procedure ?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Funny how most golfers seem perfectly happy to accept rules/verdicts like dress codes imposed by some a committee and say if people don't like them then they should not join. Yet when it comes to a verdict that has been through what is generally seen as one of the best justice systems in the world then they are not so sure of it. Mostly based on what the person who was convicted of rape says on their web site.

What has been said on the website has also been confirmed in the police statements - the video is also on the website - there appears to be a lot of facts on the website and in the papers that i have read and listened to the clips

How you bring in dress codes ( once again ) is beyond me - it is totally irrelevant

People are able to discuss things and are able to form opinions and have doubts regardless of verdicts.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes there have Mis wrongful convcuitobs. But the correct ones give me more confidence in the system being right not wrong.

Its nit not a case of me being closed minded be used I don't believe him. It's a case of trusting our system. Did they release all the details of what made them convict him. If not then you're veliveing his innocence purely on his suggestions. Or you simply have another reason to not trust the judicial systems.

hence why i have asked the question - is there anything not being said - have the courts kept something that the young lady said - is there evidence that we dont know about ?

The fact there has been mistakes in the justice system is always a reason to be open minded in regards some cases if you believe there is doubt there.

Why dont you believe him ? He could be telling them truth - it could simply be a case of his word against hers - that itself brings in doubt.

(p.s. - impressed this has stayed a civil debate )

 

[Beezerk]

Funny how most golfers seem perfectly happy to accept rules/verdicts like dress codes imposed by some a committee and say if people don't like them then they should not join. Yet when it comes to a verdict that has been through what is generally seen as one of the best justice systems in the world then they are not so sure of it. Mostly based on what the person who was convicted of rape says on their web site.

I find it vile that people are seemingly questioning whether the lass was drunk enough or not to consent. Does it really matter?
He got done bang to rights for rape and besides, I wouldn't expect anyone in Chad Evans position to come out and say they were guilty. They never do!

 

[FairwayDodger]

Why dont you believe him ? He could be telling them truth - it could simply be a case of his word against hers - that itself brings in doubt.

Innocent until proven guilty is a good adage. He's been proven guilty in a court of law. End of story.

Hugely disappointed that some here are still blaming the victim and taking the rapists side over the findings of a court of law.

Whether he should be allowed to continue a career as a pro-footballer is a legitimate subject for debate, the fact that he is a convicted rapist is not.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Innocent until proven guilty is a good adage. He's been proven guilty in a court of law. End of story.

Hugely disappointed that some here are still blaming the victim and taking the rapists side over the findings of a court of law.

Whether he should be allowed to continue a career as a pro-footballer is a legitimate subject for debate, the fact that he is a convicted rapist is not.

Is that valid for every single conviction then - what about the ones that have been proven guilty and convictions quashed decades later in some cases ?

Some believe there is significant doubt in the case to question the conviction.

As for innocent until proven guilty - because of the media coverage in this country and the fact that the media can spread the accused name around the people majority of the time they are deemed guilty already.

 

[bluewolf]

Got to love this thread.. The 2 women involved have had their characters assassinated and the blokes have been given all the benefit of the doubt.. Priceless...

Oh, and with regards to the OP.. Yes he should be allowed to return to his job, however, I would hope that my club would refuse to employ him on ethical grounds (As my club did with Marlon King). I'm off to the game with my kids today. If he was playing, I'd make other plans.. I'm not sure I could explain the situation to my daughter without sickening her..

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Got to love this thread.. The 2 women involved have had their characters assassinated and the blokes have been given all the benefit of the doubt.. Priceless...

Oh, and with regards to the OP.. Yes he should be allowed to return to his job, however, I would hope that my club would refuse to employ him on ethical grounds (As my club did with Marlon King). I'm off to the game with my kids today. If he was playing, I'd make other plans.. I'm not sure I could explain the situation to my daughter without sickening her..

Was there a second woman ?

If there is doubt on both sides then can there be a conviction ?