Changing Weights in Driver

[Orikoru]

If you're really wanting to add weight to close the face during the swing, my intuition would be to put it in the toe. However, I point you to my previous post

The weight in the heel is for gear effect - the face is supposed to turn open at impact, which in turn puts draw spin on the ball.

I just don't think this is right. I can't find anything online that explains the science behind 'SFT' or why Ping say that it works, only that it does work. But I've only ever heard it explained in that it allows you to square the face better, i.e. the toe moves slightly quicker.

I dont think the weight affect the heel/toe movement in flight, but its only on the contact that weights, and weight position, has an influence by affecting the twisting motion of the head for strikes not in line with the centre of mass of the head.

This might be correct and makes sense to me. The impact causes the face to twist and promotes a draw strike.

I think for most golfers thats the case - it makes no difference. For those with consistent face impact location though, where and how much weight will affect the twisting and gear affect correction, when they do miss the sweetspot.
I think its one of these cases where the fundamental science of it is truly correct, but the transfer of that effect to most golfers is too small to make any practical difference. But the manufacturers arent going to point out that their tech only has relevance to 1% of us (and Im not in the 1%).

Yes. I'm starting to think that the reason I don't notice a difference is that two effects are cancelling each other out.
1. More weight in the heel does create more draw-bias.
2. But more weight in the head generally makes it harder to square the face potentially.

 

[Beezerk]

I do exactly the same. A pro told me to do this during a lesson. You expect to duck hook but it doesn't, presumably because whatever else we do counteracts and the end result is either straight or within a tight margin. A simple enough change, not a swing change or anything more difficult.

It’s matching club face with swing path a bit more which should straighten the ball flight

 

[Orikoru]

I do exactly the same. A pro told me to do this during a lesson. You expect to duck hook but it doesn't, presumably because whatever else we do counteracts and the end result is either straight or within a tight margin. A simple enough change, not a swing change or anything more difficult.

It's a bit of a 'two wrongs make a right' scenario though isn't it? If I have the face closed to start with, then in order to hit a good shot my path has to wrong as well? If I close the face but accidentally put a good swing on it, then it's going left.

Don't get me wrong here, I do hit good drives sometimes. I'm just trying to eliminate the big slice that turns up once or twice a round as it's costing me 3 or 4 shots per round in re-teeing or chipping out of trees. So if the extra weight turns the 40 yard slice into a 30 yard slice, even that would be quite helpful. Might only cost me 2 shots per round instead.

 

[Beezerk]

It's a bit of a 'two wrongs make a right' scenario though isn't it? If I have the face closed to start with, then in order to hit a good shot my path has to wrong as well? If I close the face but accidentally put a good swing on it, then it's going left.

Don't get me wrong here, I do hit good drives sometimes. I'm just trying to eliminate the big slice that turns up once or twice a round as it's costing me 3 or 4 shots per round in re-teeing or chipping out of trees. So if the extra weight turns the 40 yard slice into a 30 yard slice, even that would be quite helpful. Might only cost me 2 shots per round instead.

Good luck trying to change your swing path, apparently it’s one of the hardest things to do as it means a completely different physical approach to how you swing the club.

 

[MACM85]

Good luck trying to change your swing path, apparently it’s one of the hardest things to do as it means a completely different physical approach to how you swing the club.

I have been working on path this past winter. I was -8 across on trackman. Now I am at worse -3 to neutral.

Lessons have helped but easy to understand drills and stuff to work on has been key

 

[Beezerk]

I have been working on path this past winter. I was -8 across on trackman. Now I am at worse -3 to neutral.

Lessons have helped but easy to understand drills and stuff to work on has been key

Was there any particular key thing that made the most change or was it more a slow gradual improvement? Fair play btw I wouldn’t have the patience

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It's a bit of a 'two wrongs make a right' scenario though isn't it? If I have the face closed to start with, then in order to hit a good shot my path has to wrong as well? If I close the face but accidentally put a good swing on it, then it's going left.

Don't get me wrong here, I do hit good drives sometimes. I'm just trying to eliminate the big slice that turns up once or twice a round as it's costing me 3 or 4 shots per round in re-teeing or chipping out of trees. So if the extra weight turns the 40 yard slice into a 30 yard slice, even that would be quite helpful. Might only cost me 2 shots per round instead.

You have to balance if your bad shot is rare, and so not worth worrying too much about, or whether it is more regular. It is regular then the two wrongs scenario comes into play. If not, then don't try that particular suggestion.

With my experience of doing this, different swing to you, I no longer have a destructive fade. I mainly go dead straight. The alternatives are now a slight fade or a slight draw (all random ). It's been worth it for me but we are all different. I should add, I can still hit bad drives but they are flat out duffs rather than big slices now. That's on me, lack of concentration really.

 

[sjw]

I just don't think this is right. I can't find anything online that explains the science behind 'SFT' or why Ping say that it works, only that it does work. But I've only ever heard it explained in that it allows you to square the face better, i.e. the toe moves slightly quicker.


This might be correct and makes sense to me. The impact causes the face to twist and promotes a draw strike.


Yes. I'm starting to think that the reason I don't notice a difference is that two effects are cancelling each other out.
1. More weight in the heel does create more draw-bias.
2. But more weight in the head generally makes it harder to square the face potentially.

You said that you don't think my post is right, but then agreed with Dunesman who said exactly the same thing...?

 

[Springveldt]

It's a bit of a 'two wrongs make a right' scenario though isn't it? If I have the face closed to start with, then in order to hit a good shot my path has to wrong as well? If I close the face but accidentally put a good swing on it, then it's going left.

Don't get me wrong here, I do hit good drives sometimes. I'm just trying to eliminate the big slice that turns up once or twice a round as it's costing me 3 or 4 shots per round in re-teeing or chipping out of trees. So if the extra weight turns the 40 yard slice into a 30 yard slice, even that would be quite helpful. Might only cost me 2 shots per round instead.

You have to think of what's happening at the end, not the beginning. You are slicing it, so you are leaving the face wide open to your path. Now, if you grip the face with a closed face and it starts left and draws then yes, you have went too far as the face is now closed to path. But, with your face being so far open at impact, gripping with the face slightly closed might end up bringing something that is 8 degrees open at impact down to 2 open which now means you have a functional fade rather than a draw.

When you think of a "good swing" you are matching up the face to the path so it goes straight left but that's because you are also aiming straight left (look at my comments in your swing video). If you start hitting them left consistently then you just need to change your starting aim point.

If I'm having a horrendous day with the driver and slice the first couple of drives you can be sure the next one I'll grip the club with the face closed and see where it goes.

 

[Orikoru]

Good luck trying to change your swing path, apparently it’s one of the hardest things to do as it means a completely different physical approach to how you swing the club.

I just need to get the takeaway right though, when I feel that correctly, the rest of it falls into place. My problem is I'll get it for three drives in a row, then just completely forget and start doing it wrong again. As you say, that's why it's so hard - your body just naturally falls back into what's comfortable and natural, unless your brain is switched on 100% of the time.

You have to balance if your bad shot is rare, and so not worth worrying too much about, or whether it is more regular. It is regular then the two wrongs scenario comes into play. If not, then don't try that particular suggestion.

With my experience of doing this, different swing to you, I no longer have a destructive fade. I mainly go dead straight. The alternatives are now a slight fade or a slight draw (all random ). It's been worth it for me but we are all different. I should add, I can still hit bad drives but they are flat out duffs rather than big slices now. That's on me, lack of concentration really.

I don't know if I'd call it rare, given that it's basically every round? I certainly have tried closing the face before - as I mentioned, with my out to in swing it just gave me a two-way miss as sometimes I'd pull it straight left as well as still slicing it occasionally. I would actually prefer to have a 30 yard fade as long as it's the same every time, because I can play with that. Currently I've got a 20 to 70 yard fade which I'd like to dial back to a 20 to 40 yard fade maybe.

Ah it's never easy is it. The day I finally get this right I'm sure my short game and putting will fall off a cliff anyway.

 

[Orikoru]

You said that you don't think my post is right, but then agreed with Dunesman who said exactly the same thing...?

No he didn't. Gear effect is when you hit one of the toe, for example, but the curvature of the face spins the ball so that it moves right to left in the air. I don't think more weight in the heel would affect that, unless it is by physically squaring the face more and producing less of said gear effect, by striking it squarer.

 

[MACM85]

Was there any particular key thing that made the most change or was it more a slow gradual improvement? Fair play btw I wouldn’t have the patience

Basically the lessons I have had we have worked on a stronger grip, I was a tad weak. Moved to get a bigger hip turn and feel the hip is firing at the ball first. Still room to get it better but it is much better than what it was. Where before my miss was right I am now left with a pull at worse.

A swiss ball drill has worked wonders to get the feeling in the swing that I want. Been seeing Lewis Sparrow over at Precision Golf. Pretty sure on his youtube he has a video with the swiss ball drill.

 

[Orikoru]

You have to think of what's happening at the end, not the beginning. You are slicing it, so you are leaving the face wide open to your path. Now, if you grip the face with a closed face and it starts left and draws then yes, you have went too far as the face is now closed to path. But, with your face being so far open at impact, gripping with the face slightly closed might end up bringing something that is 8 degrees open at impact down to 2 open which now means you have a functional fade rather than a draw.

When you think of a "good swing" you are matching up the face to the path so it goes straight left but that's because you are also aiming straight left (look at my comments in your swing video). If you start hitting them left consistently then you just need to change your starting aim point.

If I'm having a horrendous day with the driver and slice the first couple of drives you can be sure the next one I'll grip the club with the face closed and see where it goes.

Yeah, I do agree to an extent. Like you, if I'm having a really bad slice day I will close the face at address as a bit of a hail Mary to keep it in play. I'm just saying that when I tried that more regularly it gave me a two-way miss, and although it's a close thing, I think I slightly prefer a bad one-way miss over a two-way miss, because at least I sort of know where to aim then.

 

[MACM85]

No he didn't. Gear effect is when you hit one of the toe, for example, but the curvature of the face spins the ball so that it moves right to left in the air. I don't think more weight in the heel would affect that, unless it is by physically squaring the face more and producing less of said gear effect, by striking it squarer.

I had a hybrid that had more weight in the heel. I found that I was always getting the heel to the ball first. Binned it off and went to a standard hybrid and now the heel isn't anywhere near the area I hit it. I am toe side at worse.

 

[sjw]

No he didn't. Gear effect is when you hit one of the toe, for example, but the curvature of the face spins the ball so that it moves right to left in the air. I don't think more weight in the heel would affect that, unless it is by physically squaring the face more and producing less of said gear effect, by striking it squarer.

"The impact causes the face to twist and promotes a draw strike"

You said this yourself! That's gear effect. If you move the weight around (ie add more weight in the heel or the toe), you move the CoG, and the location which the face turns around. By putting more weight in the heel, you move the CoG toward the heel, meaning the club wants to turn around the heel, and when the club rotates clockwise at impact (you're right-handed), the spin put on the ball is anti-clockwise. It's called "gear effect" because the club and the ball turn in opposite direction, like gears.

The bulge on a driver face is to try and counteract gear effect - it doesn't create it. It is not the bulge on the face that makes the ball turn left when you hit it out of the toe. In fact, the face has bulge such that when you do strike one out of the toe and turn the ball left, the bulge on that part of the face starts it right, hopefully bringing the ball back to centre.

 

[Orikoru]

"The impact causes the face to twist and promotes a draw strike"

You said this yourself! That's gear effect. If you move the weight around (ie add more weight in the heel or the toe), you move the CoG, and the location which the face turns around. By putting more weight in the heel, you move the CoG toward the heel, meaning the club wants to turn around the heel, and when the club rotates clockwise at impact (you're right-handed), the spin put on the ball is anti-clockwise. It's called "gear effect" because the club and the ball turn in opposite direction, like gears.

The bulge on a driver face is to try and counteract gear effect - it doesn't create it. It is not the bulge on the face that makes the ball turn left when you hit it out of the toe. In fact, the face has bulge such that when you do strike one out of the toe and turn the ball left, the bulge on that part of the face starts it right, hopefully bringing the ball back to centre.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that is gear effect. I think gear effect is when you hit across ball in a certain direction and it adds sidespin - the only way to change that would be to change the face angle you strike with, nothing to do with where the weight is. Again - my understanding might be wrong but that is where I was disagreeing with you.

And on the second point - I thought the bulge and roll was simply so that a toe-strike will start further right. Not reducing the gear effect. It just starts it further right so that gear effect brings it back to the middle, instead of sending it miles left.

 

[sjw]

I might be wrong, but I don't think that is gear effect. I think gear effect is when you hit across ball in a certain direction and it adds sidespin - the only way to change that would be to change the face angle you strike with, nothing to do with where the weight is. Again - my understanding might be wrong but that is where I was disagreeing with you.

And on the second point - I thought the bulge and roll was simply so that a toe-strike will start further right. Not reducing the gear effect. It just starts it further right so that gear effect brings it back to the middle, instead of sending it miles left.

Second point is definitely correct

 

[jim8flog]

It's a bit of a 'two wrongs make a right' scenario though isn't it? If I have the face closed to start with, then in order to hit a good shot my path has to wrong as well? If I close the face but accidentally put a good swing on it, then it's going left.

Don't get me wrong here, I do hit good drives sometimes. I'm just trying to eliminate the big slice that turns up once or twice a round as it's costing me 3 or 4 shots per round in re-teeing or chipping out of trees. So if the extra weight turns the 40 yard slice into a 30 yard slice, even that would be quite helpful. Might only cost me 2 shots per round instead.

I have been a relatively good driver for years but like you I still get some really big slices. What I have worked out is that these come from poor weight transfer* and have nothing to with the kit.

*Sometimes my leg sequence does not match the upper body sequence and there is too much weight left on the right side for too long (right handed player.

I checked the flight control book for my older TM clubs and they agree - put the heavier weight in to the heel for a right to left shot.

 

[RichA]

I might be wrong, but I don't think that is gear effect. I think gear effect is when you hit across ball in a certain direction and it adds sidespin - the only way to change that would be to change the face angle you strike with, nothing to do with where the weight is. Again - my understanding might be wrong but that is where I was disagreeing with you.

And on the second point - I thought the bulge and roll was simply so that a toe-strike will start further right. Not reducing the gear effect. It just starts it further right so that gear effect brings it back to the middle, instead of sending it miles left.

Stick the 3-wood shaft in your driver at max +loft adjustment. Give it a try, at least for a weekend. It's my go to fix when the driver is being an arse and it always works for me. And it costs nothing.

 

[Orikoru]

Stick the 3-wood shaft in your driver at max +loft adjustment. Give it a try, at least for a weekend. It's my go to fix when the driver is being an arse and it always works for me. And it costs nothing.

I appreciate the suggestion, but it feels like a cop-out. I want to get the most I can out of my driver really as I already don't hit it a long way. I hit 3 wood on three of our shorter par 4s where driver isn't needed, so it's just nine holes where I'm hitting driver because I feel like I need that distance. I have played driver at 12 and 11 degrees in the past, and it certainly does hit more fairways, but leaves me a lot longer into the greens.