Changing holes...

[Imurg]

The Greenys changed the holes yesterday.
As per thousands of hole changes every day, they "made good" the old holes.
However, this morning I came across one that had sunk a bit and so left a depression in the green.
I imagine it will be sorted at some point but would I be able to get relief from it if it was on my line? NPR.?
I'm guessing on the green - yes,,off the green..?

 

[rulefan]

The Greenys changed the holes yesterday.
As per thousands of hole changes every day, they "made good" the old holes.
However, this morning I came across one that had sunk a bit and so left a depression in the green.
I imagine it will be sorted at some point but would I be able to get relief from it if it was on my line? NPR.?
I'm guessing on the green - yes,,off the green..?

Hole made by greenkeeper (ACC). Relief under 16.1d when ball is on the green.

 

[Colin L]

I don't see a former hole that has been plugged , albeit not very well, as a hole that has been made or even as a hole. The depression seems to me to be something left after a hole has been filled in and is not GUR. You are, of course, allowed to repair it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I was always under the impression that you don’t get relief from it ? As long as it’s been repaired and not just a hole ?

 

[jim8flog]

I am with Colin on this one an old hole is not GUR or an abnormal ground condition however you are allowed to repair a poorly fitted plug in an old hole.

This used to be made very clear in the old rules .

 

[jim8flog]

Found it in the new rule book
Rule 13 (2)

(2) Repair of Damage. A player may repair damage on the putting green without
penalty by taking reasonable actions to restore the putting green as nearly as
possible to its original condition,

“Damage on the putting green” means any damage caused by any person
(including the player) or outside influence, such as:

• Old hole plugs, turf plugs, seams of cut turf and scrapes or indentations from
maintenance tools or vehicles,

 

[Steven Rules]

I am with Colin on this one an old hole is not GUR or an abnormal ground condition

Found it in the new rule book
Rule 13 (2)

Just a couple of minor points of pedantry.

It is Rule 13.1c(2).

The correct terminolgy is abnormal course condition. GUR is one of the four conditions that are subsets of abnormal course conditions. (Noting, as others have already said, that old hole plugs that have sunk below the surface of the putting green are not GUR - see Ground Under Repair/1)

 

[rulefan]

I am not really convinced that the reinsertion of material into an old hole is 'damage'. It is just incorrectly reinstated.

• Any hole made by the Committee or the maintenance staff in:
  
  • Setting up the course (such as a hole where a stake has been removed or the hole on a double green being used for the play of another hole), or
  • Maintaining the course (such as a hole made in removing turf or a tree stump or laying pipelines, but not including aeration holes).

 

[Imurg]

I am not really convinced that the reinsertion of material into an old hole is 'damage'. It is just incorrectly reinstated.

And, after all, the hole was originally made by a Greenkeeper..

 

[Steven Rules]

I am not really convinced that the reinsertion of material into an old hole is 'damage'.

Convinced or not, 13.1c(2) specifically cites old hole plugs on the putting green as an example of "damage".

 

[rulefan]

Convinced or not, 13.1c(2) specifically cites old hole plugs on the putting green as an example of "damage".

But it doesn't say it is not GUR

 

[Colin L]

How would you rule a plug that had not been inserted well and was proud of the surface. Is that a hole made by a greenkeeper?

 

[Bratty]

My understanding was that for artificial hole plugs, you were allowed relief, but for grass ones, play it as it lies, when on the green. Looks like I'm wrong.

 

[backwoodsman]

I would say that a hole filled by a greenkeeper is no longer a hole made by a greenkeeper. After all it's no longer a hole? It is now just a badly repaired piece of ground?
After all, the definition of GUR uses an example of a hole made by removing a tree stump. If the greenkeepers fill that hole, and the backfill eventually settles (and it will, it always does) is the resulting depression in the ground going to be GUR for evermore?

 

[Neilds]

I must admit I was a little bit disappointed to find this thread wasn't related to to the post that Norrin Radd put in the Laughter Thread

 

[rulefan]

Apologies folks.
The authoritative answer is:
1) The old hole is no longer deemed to be a hole.
2) The justification for the poor restitution not being GUR is that any indent or old hole plug could be considered GUR and relief taken when not merited.
3) If appropriate/necessary, the committee can designate it as GUR.

 

[salfordlad]

The simplest source of the correct answer is in Ground Under Repair/1.