Changes following a Handicap Review, Sanctioning by Authorized Association.

[rulefan]

In order to maintain integrity at this level of the sport I personally feel that cutting a +4 handicapper by 2 shots has more resonance than a 24 handicapper.

I agree. An unjustified reduction for higher cappers only increases their difficulty in getting a 'boastable' low score. Whereas unjustifiably cutting an elite player will not only give them something to boast about but more importantly, potentially give them entry to important prestigious competitions at the expense of players with legitimate handicaps.
Clubs can look after the former but elite competitions and players need to be protected from rogue entrants.

 

[rulefan]

I have received the following from the Regional Handicap Advisor.

Alterations to a HI need only be sanctioned by the County Union or Association if it is for an 'Elite' golfer. This is a golfer with a HI of or less than scratch for a male and 2 for a female.

EG have so far not answered and the advisor has not said where this documented.

This effectively tightens the old CONGU cat 1 rule.
Our Regional Advisor agrees that it should be properly documented. They have previously pointed it out to EG who have seemingly accepted the point and will (hopefully) correct the omission.
Incidentally, it does not appear on the WHS portal either when making the handicap adjustments.

 

[D-S]

This effectively tightens the old CONGU cat 1 rule.
Our Regional Advisor agrees that it should be properly documented. They have previously pointed it out to EG who have seemingly accepted the point and will (hopefully) correct the omission.
Incidentally, it does not appear on the WHS portal either when making the handicap adjustments.

It does appear on the portal , when you go to adjust a handicap it is in the notes. That is probably where some of us have seen it previously. I don’t have access on my phone but can cut and paste the relevant section if you would like when I’m back on my Computer.

 

[YandaB]

It does appear on the portal , when you go to adjust a handicap it is in the notes. That is probably where some of us have seen it previously. I don’t have access on my phone but can cut and paste the relevant section if you would like when I’m back on my Computer.

Thank you, that is correct. However it is only regarding adjustments that change your handicap upwards (but at least it is something written down):

Upward adjustments are not allowed for
a) Men with a handicap index of 0 or below.
b) Women with a handicap index of 2 or below.

 

[rulefan]

It does appear on the portal , when you go to adjust a handicap it is in the notes. That is probably where some of us have seen it previously. I don’t have access on my phone but can cut and paste the relevant section if you would like when I’m back on my Computer.

I didn't look at the portal but are you saying the words below are on the portal?
Alterations to a HI need only be sanctioned by the County Union or Association if it is for an 'Elite' golfer. This is a golfer with a HI of or less than scratch for a male and 2 for a female.

Could you please send the cut & paste

 

[woofers]

From the portal :

Apply an Adjustment to this member's recent scores
Manual Handicap Index adjustments are applied to each of the most recent 20 Score Differentials in the scoring record from when they are created.
They may be used to adjust a player's Handicap Index to better reflect the player's demonstrated ability.
This will allow for the Handicap Index to be updated as new scores are posted.
A handicap committee can remove the adjustment at any time if the adjustment is determined to no longer be warranted.

Any adjustment to a player's Handicap Index must be applied only after the player has been informed and has had an opportunity to respond.
Adjustments should only increase a player's Handicap Index by up to 5.0 strokes above the player's Low Handicap Index, unless there are exceptional circumstances.
Such circumstances could include a player who has a long-term illness or injury preventing them from playing golf at the level previously attained.
Adjustments must be sanctioned or ratified by an authorized association or handicap committee.

If an applied adjustment increases a player's Handicap Index, consider resetting the player's Low Handicap Index to prevent the player's handicap being upwardly capped despite the adjustment.
This causes the player's Low Handicap Index to become the lowest Handicap Index achieved by a player
a) during the 365-day period preceding their most recent score OR
b) during the period between their most recent score and the creation date of the adjustment, whichever is lower.

Upward adjustments are not allowed for
a) Men with a handicap index of 0 or below.
b) Women with a handicap index of 2 or below.

 

[rulefan]

From the portal :

Apply an Adjustment to this member's recent scores
Manual Handicap Index adjustments are applied to each of the most recent 20 Score Differentials in the scoring record from when they are created.
They may be used to adjust a player's Handicap Index to better reflect the player's demonstrated ability.
This will allow for the Handicap Index to be updated as new scores are posted.
A handicap committee can remove the adjustment at any time if the adjustment is determined to no longer be warranted.

Any adjustment to a player's Handicap Index must be applied only after the player has been informed and has had an opportunity to respond.
Adjustments should only increase a player's Handicap Index by up to 5.0 strokes above the player's Low Handicap Index, unless there are exceptional circumstances.
Such circumstances could include a player who has a long-term illness or injury preventing them from playing golf at the level previously attained.
Adjustments must be sanctioned or ratified by an authorized association or handicap committee.

If an applied adjustment increases a player's Handicap Index, consider resetting the player's Low Handicap Index to prevent the player's handicap being upwardly capped despite the adjustment.
This causes the player's Low Handicap Index to become the lowest Handicap Index achieved by a player
a) during the 365-day period preceding their most recent score OR
b) during the period between their most recent score and the creation date of the adjustment, whichever is lower.

Upward adjustments are not allowed for
a) Men with a handicap index of 0 or below.
b) Women with a handicap index of 2 or below.

Thanks. It is the words in italics in my post above that I have been querying. They should have been in the GUIDE and/or the portal page.

 

[D-S]

Thanks. It is the words in italics in my post above that I have been querying. They should have been in the GUIDE and/or the portal page.

As per woofers post the words in your italics do not appear on the portal.
It appears now even more strange with clubs able to cut a +4 to +6 but not allowed to move them to +3. This seems the wrong way round to me, I do not understand the logic. The words that you have put in italics in post 45 would seem simple and sensible to me.
I will check further up the tree.

 

[rulefan]

As per woofers post the words in your italics do not appear on the portal.

That is what I subsequently confirmed.

It appears now even more strange with clubs able to cut a +4 to +6 but not allowed to move them to +3.

How did you work that out?

 

[D-S]

That is what I subsequently confirmed.

How did you work that out?

It says that you are not allowed to make an upwards adjustment e.g, for a Woman from 0 to 1, but it does not say you cannot make a downwards adjustment e.g. for a woman from 1 to 0 - therefore it infers you can. Otherwise why use the word 'Upwards'?

 

[rulefan]

It says that you are not allowed to make an upwards adjustment e.g, for a Woman from 0 to 1, but it does not say you cannot make a downwards adjustment e.g. for a woman from 1 to 0 - therefore it infers you can. Otherwise why use the word 'Upwards'?

Any adjustment for that woman has to be sanctioned by the county as her handicap is less than 2 (ie o & 1 in your examples).
Alterations to a HI need only be sanctioned by the County Union or Association if it is for an 'Elite' golfer. This is a golfer with a HI of or less than scratch for a male and 2 for a female.

Are we talking at X purposes? Is +4 better than scratch.

 

[D-S]

Any adjustment for that woman has to be sanctioned by the county as her handicap is less than 2 (ie o & 1 in your examples).
Alterations to a HI need only be sanctioned by the County Union or Association if it is for an 'Elite' golfer. This is a golfer with a HI of or less than scratch for a male and 2 for a female.

Are we talking at X purposes? Is +4 better than scratch.

I am quoting the only source that I know is written for Players, Clubs or Counties - I am not sure where the wording you quote is accessible for Players, Clubs or Counties and therefore how they should know how or if they can act.

 

[rulefan]

I am quoting the only source that I know is written for Players, Clubs or Counties - I am not sure where the wording you quote is accessible for Players, Clubs or Counties and therefore how they should know how or if they can act.

As I explained, it is information that Regional and possibly some County advisors have. My Regional Advisor has said the EG have been deficient in not making it available to everyone but that is supposedly being rectified. However, if the adjustments (for non-elite players) are sent to the county for sanctioning no doubt they will either ignore them or pass them. It will make no difference. That is the only relevant point of my quote.

But how does the full text woofer quoted from the portal justify you examples in posts 48 & 51. I'm afraid I still don't see how you got there.
But still for starters, is +4 better than scratch?

 

[D-S]

As I explained, it is information that Regional and possibly some County advisors have. My Regional Advisor has said the EG have been deficient in not making it available to everyone but that is supposedly being rectified. However, if the adjustments (for non-elite players) are sent to the county for sanctioning no doubt they will either ignore them or pass them. It will make no difference. That is the only relevant point of my quote.

But how does the full text woofer quoted from the portal justify you examples in posts 48 & 51. I'm afraid I still don't see how you got there.
But still for starters, is +4 better than scratch?

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘better‘, this term is not quoted anywhere . The only term used is ‘upwards’ and to me that means adding strokes to a HI e.g. adding a shot to a 1 HI to make it 2 or adding 1 stroke to a +4 to make it +3. There is no mention of downwards or as you say ‘better’.
I can also confirm that the wording you have received has not been shared with all County Handicap Advisors and/or all County Secretaries.

 

[rulefan]

I can also confirm that the wording you have received has not been shared with all County Handicap Advisors and/or all County Secretaries.

I had already indicated that our County Advisor was not aware even though the Regional Advisor was.
As I said before - there is a disconnect within the chain.

As per woofers post the words in your italics do not appear on the portal.
It appears now even more strange with clubs able to cut a +4 to +6 but not allowed to move them to +3. This seems the wrong way round to me, I do not understand the logic.

I now understand you point.
My impression, now that EG have modified their entry qualifications for elite competitions, is that cuts (eg +4 to +6) should not be dependent on general play scores (which the revue program includes). If a club feels such adjustment is necessary they have to justify it with good evidence.

 

[D-S]

I had already indicated that our County Advisor was not aware even though the Regional Advisor was.
As I said before - there is a disconnect within the chain.

I now understand you point.
My impression, now that EG have modified their entry qualifications for elite competitions, is that cuts (eg +4 to +6) should not be dependent on general play scores (which the revue program includes). If a club feels such adjustment is necessary they have to justify it with good evidence.

As far as I am aware the change to the EG Terms of Competition for their elite events just allows them to refuse entry to those who have more than 4 GP scores in their record if, after scrutiny, they believe that their HI does not represent their ability due to lower scores in GP vs. Competition scores.
I am not aware of anything regarding adjustments to handicaps in EG Terms of Competition, but would hope they would have included this.
I am not also aware of anything in writing beyond what your Regional Advisor has shown you (but is not in other domains), that a club ‘has to justify such a cut‘ (e.g +4 to +6) prior to doing so.

 

[rulefan]

I am not also aware of anything in writing beyond what your Regional Advisor has shown you (but is not in other domains), that a club ‘has to justify such a cut‘ (e.g +4 to +6) prior to doing so.

That was the point of my correspondence with the various levels of EG.
EG have a policy but it it isn't published. EG WHS Support wouldn't help but referred me to my CA. My CA didn't know but my RA did. My RA has asked EG to publish and EG are thinking about it.
I have no idea what other RAs, CAs or clubs have been told.
Shamble.

 

[rulefan]

I have now received some new (to me) information from EG WHS Support.
For information, the WHS portal will signpost the handicap committee to liaise with the county if they attempt to alter an "elite" golfer.
I assume this means warn (but not prevent) at the point when the historic (last 20) scores are being adjusted.

 

[D-S]

I have now received some new (to me) information from EG WHS Support.
For information, the WHS portal will signpost the handicap committee to liaise with the county if they attempt to alter an "elite" golfer.
I assume this means warn (but not prevent) at the point when the historic (last 20) scores are being adjusted.

Interesting, I wonder whether they will therefore change the current ' Upward changes are not allowed' policy.

 

[rulefan]

I have now been advised that the GUIDANCE ON THE WHS RULES OF HANDICAPPING AS APPLIED WITHIN GB&I has been amended.
Version 1.7 now includes the following on page 6

Definition of an Elite Golfer

CONGU® direct that the definition of an Elite Golfer is a male golfer with a Handicap Index
of 0.0 or lower, or a female golfer with a Handicap Index of 2.0 or lower.