Catholic Church more scandle

fallschirmjager said:
Haven't seen much systematic abuse of children in the army and police force to be honest. The Catholic church is most probably the biggest paedophile ring in the world.
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Quite possiblly the most ridiculous comment i've ever read!

The Army doesn't permit people to join at least they didn't when I was serving, likewise the police force. But they are people in a position of power that can be abused whether thats for child molestation, racial, sexual or simply bullying. The army had its fair share of issues with bullying, sexual and racial abuse over the years Deepcut was rife with it. Abuse comes in many guises not just that of child abuse.

Also I take it my family are in the same bracket that your labelling the catholic church with or are you simply relating your post to the Clergymen running it. Yes some have been found guilty of this and rightly so should be punsihed as any man or woman should for this type of action, but there are hundreds/thousands even out there doing so much good work for Men, Women and Children alike that are not abusing their positions.

There will be hundreds of people in civilian life they are being prosecuted for this and added to sex offenders registers but because its the church its higher profile therefore newsworthy. But in no way is this behaviour defendable its totally wrong and requires punishing as do the people that have covered it up.

But by no means tar all catholics with the same brush as we're all individual people who make our own choices in everything we do in life.

Re: Catholic Church more scandle
A religion that promotes non married men to lead it is always going to struggle with it's morals.
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Again total garbage! What about if it was non married women! There are plenty more non married men leading good lives with good morals. Likewise there has been manya married man convicted of the same crimes.

Perhaps like blade player its time for me to step away from the thread.
 
I think some people are taking this far too personally.

For me the issue is the disgusting systematic abuse of innocent children who were placed in these schools, chapels etc by trusting parents and that trust was abused by depraved men of the cloth who carried out sickening abuse like it was they're right.

The subsequent cover up and denial by the Catholic Church and the obstructive ways and measures they put in place to protect the priests is sickening.

I think some people appear to be taking this as an insult against their own faith which is ludicrous. The Catholic Church does an awful lot of wonderful work throughout the world and that is not being questioned or denied. What gets the general public's back up is the years of lies and deceit and obvious cover ups and hush ups which have been orchestrated from within the organisation.
 
Chances are the abusers confess every Sunday, and are then absolved, ready to start again on Monday.

For me, the issue is less with the perpetrators, and more with the cover ups. What these people have done is illegal, and should be treated as such.
 
Almost sounds as though you condone the predator instincts of some priests and the subsequent cover up and denial of the Catholic Church
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No idea what so ever how you got that from his post ,

I find it incomprehensible the betray of trust and the exploitation of innocence that allows (yes it still happens even although the Catholic Church still tries to hush it up) preists to pray on children
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So do 99% other catholics , they are nit dointg it because they are priests they are doing it because they are sick individuals

The subsequent lengths that the Catholic Church has gone to in order to cover it up and thereafter deny it is chilling and disgusting.
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agree totaly
 
My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:
I think some people are taking this far too personally.



.

I think some people appear to be taking this as an insult against their own faith which is ludicrous.



. What gets the general public's back up is the years of lies and deceit and obvious cover ups and hush ups which have been orchestrated from within the organisation.
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Depends on your understanding of what or who the catholic is ..

the good part of the catholic church agrees with the rest of your sentiments tho ..
 
bladeplayer said:
Depends on your understanding of what or who the catholic is ..

the good part of the catholic church agrees with the rest of your sentiments tho ..
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So do you just chose to ignore the bits that you failed to comment on? That is exactly the head in the sand attitude that has made this whole sordid affair so sickening.

For the avoidance of any doubt I'm not accusing you of sticking your head in the sand. Just curious as to why you decided to edit my post to suit your argument. I'd have thought my whole post was clear enough. I'm not having a go at the faith or any religion. My stance would be the same if it was the Church of England, Muslim or whatever.

The morals are disgusting and wrong.
 
I think it's very easy but far too simplistic to suggest that the difficult issues the Catholic and Anglican churches for two have had to confront is anything systematic about the churches themselves. If you don't like churches and religion - it's easy to make that accusation - but I dont think that it's fair or indeed true. Come on board the radio and TV presenters BBC of the 60s, 70s and 80s - and 90s? See MPs from the 50s, 60s and earlier to the present day using their positions of to gain sexual favours favours. And I haven't started on film stars - God only knows what the matinee idols got up to in the 30s, 40s and 50s - we we do know quite a bit and it wasn't pretty.

And the common denominator - they are generally male in positions of celebrity, recognition, influence or power. Nothing really to do with the church of any denomination - as much as 'church-haters' might like it to be. So just because you may not have any religious belief please let's not express spurious ill-founded opinions that are insulting to those who do.
 
My_HarrisTweed_Cap said:
So do you just chose to ignore the bits that you failed to comment on? That is exactly the head in the sand attitude that has made this whole sordid affair so sickening.

For the avoidance of any doubt I'm not accusing you of sticking your head in the sand. Just curious as to why you decided to edit my post to suit your argument. I'd have thought my whole post was clear enough. I'm not having a go at the faith or any religion. My stance would be the same if it was the Church of England, Muslim or whatever.

The morals are disgusting and wrong.
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Definatly not ignoring anything you said and am in agreement with most of it..

i chose the pieces i did because of the misunderstanding that seems to be bounding around of what the catholic church is ,

its not just the clergy , its the faith, the belief & its everyone that is catholic , including me , so maybe i may take it personaly if people knock what i believe in , im part of the catholic church , ive never abused anyone ..

As ive said numerous times i agree the people who did wrong should be hunted down & made pay , so should the ones who covered it up , they are the reason it got to escalate ..

Members of the catholic church have done very bad thing and that saddens & disgust real catholics as much as it does you ,
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:
I think it's very easy but far too simplistic to suggest that the difficult issues the Catholic and Anglican churches for two have had to confront is anything systematic about the churches themselves. If you don't like churches and religion - it's easy to make that accusation - but I dont think that it's fair or indeed true. Come on board the radio and TV presenters BBC of the 60s, 70s and 80s - and 90s? See MPs from the 50s, 60s and earlier to the present day using their positions of to gain sexual favours favours. And I haven't started on film stars - God only knows what the matinee idols got up to in the 30s, 40s and 50s - we we do know quite a bit and it wasn't pretty.

And the common denominator - they are generally male in positions of celebrity, recognition, influence or power. Nothing really to do with the church of any denomination - as much as 'church-haters' might like it to be. So just because you may not have any religious belief please let's not express spurious ill-founded opinions that are insulting to those who do.
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:clap::clap::clap: Hence my post below ..

bladeplayer said:
Where there is power there will be abuse , doesnt matter what label that power comes under , police , church , army , teachers etc, the abuse & the cover ups are the fault of the people above not the whole system or job ..
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fallschirmjager said:
Haven't seen much systematic abuse of children in the army and police force to be honest. The Catholic church is most probably the biggest paedophile ring in the world.
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Both those organisations have their own issues!

Deepcut certainly seemed rather embarrassing. Met Police has admitted it'was 'institutionally racist' and it probably hasn't moved on all that much. Probably same with all the other issues deemed prejudices too.

And Schools aren't immune either. Remember Don Boyd's revelations about abuse at Loretto School - I remember that as I drove past it most days when for a couple of years at the time it became public! It just happens to be Scottish!

I believe the Catholic Church (and the CofE) has a huge task sorting out how it deals with the issue, given it philosophy of 'forgiveness'. There are other religions that have similar issues with getting outside agencies involved too. While documentaries legitimately raise the issue, they all too often take an approach that is biased by the particular journalist/director/producer and simply ignite existing prejudices - s would seem to be the case here!

Mind you, prejudice against 'Weekend Warriors' can be pretty bizarre and anti-social too! If a documentary on that subject was produced, it would probably focus on how most golf clubs couldn't exist without them!
 
One of Scotland's most senior Catholics has apologised on behalf of the church for decades of physical and sexual abuse of pupils at a boarding school.

The Bishop of Aberdeen, Hugh Gilbert, addressed parishioners at Fort Augustus in the Highlands.

His statement came after the BBC found evidence of physical and sexual abuse by monks at Fort Augustus Abbey School and its prep school in East Lothian.

The Benedictine order which ran the schools, has already apologised.

Bishop Gilbert's address is the first time a senior Catholic cleric has spoken publicly about abuse at the abbey schools.

He told parishoners: "It is a most bitter, shaming and distressing thing that in this former abbey school a small number of baptised, consecrated and ordained Christian men physically or sexually abused those in their care.

"I know that Abbot Richard Yeo has offered an apology to those who have suffered such abuse and I join him in that.


Abuse survivor Christopher Walls: ''They are only apologising because they have been chased into a corner''
"We are anxious that there be a thorough police investigation into all this. And, that all that can be done should be done for the victims. All of us must surely pray for those who have suffered."

But Christopher Walls, who was physically and sexually abused when he was a pupil at Carlekemp Prep School, in North Berwick, East Lothian, said the apology was "thin" and "had only come because they've got their arms up their back".

"On a daily basis I've had to swallow anger, fear and regret at my lost childhood.

"You don't get absolution when you go to confession just for saying sorry. You've got to have a firm purpose of amendment and that involves taking action. And you've got to make good the damage you did. And there's no hint of that," he said.

BBC Scotland spoke to more than 50 former pupils during its six-month investigation.

Many said they had nothing but good memories of the schools, but the BBC also heard accounts from old boys of serious physical violence and sexual assault, including rape, by monks over a 30-year period.

BBC Scotland Investigates: Sins of Our Fathers, which aired on Monday, contained evidence against seven Fort Augustus monks.

Two headmasters have also been accused of covering-up the abuse.

And the documentary contained allegations that the abbey was used as a "dumping ground" for problem clergy who had confessed to abusing children.

Mark Daly, BBC Scotland's investigations correspondent, who broke the story, said the apology was significant because it was the first time a senior clergyman had addressed the allegations since the programme went out almost a week ago.


Fort Augustus Abbey School was one of the most prestigious Catholic boarding schools in Scotland
He said: "The allegations centred on monks from the Benedictine congregation, which is essentially an autonomous order within the Catholic Church.

"The Catholic Church had told us this was not a matter for them, it was a matter for the Benedictines.

"But the evidence we obtained about offences was that they all happened on Scottish soil, they happened to Scottish Catholics - they're all part of the Catholic flock, as far as the victims are concerned.

"And from the victims' point of view, they have been waiting for something from the senior clergy in the Church, so today will have been something significant."

Since the programme was broadcast, the BBC has been contacted by other former pupils with similar claims of abuse, right up until the boarding school closed in the 1990s. Police Scotland have confirmed they are investigating the allegations.

'Annual audits'
Dom Richard Yeo, the Abbot President of the Benedictines order which ran the school, apologised on the programme and said mistakes were made.

"All I can say is that I'm sorry that it happened, it shouldn't have happened," he said.

The Catholic Church in Scotland has said it would publish details of its annual audits, which deal with abuse allegations dating back to 2006.

Bishop Gilbert said: "The Catholic Church in Scotland has been addressing this issue increasingly effectively in recent years.

"We want to work with all public bodies who care for the young and vulnerable adults.

"We wish to share our experience and share best practice so that lessons can be learned and children can always be fully protected."
 
Here's an extract from an article I came across recently!

<extract>
Irish child abuse inquiry calls for Scottish survivors to come forward
June 20, 2013

An inquiry into historical child abuse at institutions in Northern Ireland is appealing for survivors living in Scotland to come forward.

The Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry was set up earlier this year to investigate abuse at residential institutions over a 73-year period up to 1995.

So far 43 individuals living in Scotland and England have contacted the inquiry regarding their experiences, while 281 potential witnesses still living in Northern Ireland have contacted investigators.

The inquiry is focussing on 35 institutions, including state-run children’s homes, Catholic Church-run facilities, borstals or training schools and homes run by Protestant churches or voluntary organisations.

</extract>

So, scarily, it's pretty widespread!
 
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It is all well and good saying that this kind of thing happens in all kind of institutions. Maybe it does and hopefully if it has, this will help any abuse in other institutions come to light. But what is certain here is that this has happened in the catholic church and it needs to be dealt with. This is the subject of the thread and the OP asks a perfectly reasonable question in can catholics have faith in those who run their church when this has been handled so badly. Firstly the perpetrators need to be rooted out and punished. This is the law that we all have to obey and the clergy is no exception. The church should support this. Secondly, the church needs to ensure this is stopped. Now. No excuses. And never happens again. This has to come from within the church and the billion + Catholics around the world have to make it clear they will not accept this disgusting, disgraceful, depraved behaviour by those in whom they place their trust.
 
Sweep said:
It is all well and good saying that this kind of thing happens in all kind of institutions. Maybe it does and hopefully if it has, this will help any abuse in other institutions come to light. But what is certain here is that this has happened in the catholic church and it needs to be dealt with. This is the subject of the thread and the OP asks a perfectly reasonable question in can catholics have faith in those who run their church when this has been handled so badly. Firstly the perpetrators need to be rooted out and punished. This is the law that we all have to obey and the clergy is no exception. The church should support this. Secondly, the church needs to ensure this is stopped. Now. No excuses. And never happens again. This has to come from within the church and the billion + Catholics around the world have to make it clear they will not accept this disgusting, disgraceful, depraved behaviour by those in whom they place their trust.
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Yes. The issue is certainly valid and needs to be dealt with.

But, without taking any Pro or Anti Catholic Church stance myself, I'm suspicious of the motives behind the OP's several (well, at least 2)threads on this topic. To me, St Augustine is a single (catastrophic) case, so 'more scandal' is really 'same scandal, more victims'.

Personally, I believe it's up to Catholics to sort it out, just as it's up to the CofE to sort it out in their environment. Burying it is certainly not 'sorting it out' though!

Here's another 'closed' group where the issue appears to exist - and there was a Ch4 program about it. http://www.timesofisrael.com/london-haredim-slam-tv-expose-on-sexual-abuse-in-community/

And does anyone believe this is only a recent phenomenon?
 
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Foxholer said:
Yes. The issue is certainly valid and needs to be dealt with.

But, without taking any Pro or Anti Catholic Church stance myself, I'm suspicious of the motives behind the OP's several (well, at least 2)threads on this topic. To me, St Augustine is a single (catastrophic) case, so 'more scandal' is really 'same scandal, more victims'.

Personally, I believe it's up to Catholics to sort it out, just as it's up to the CofE to sort it out in their environment. Burying it is certainly not 'sorting it out' though!

Here's another 'closed' group where the issue appears to exist - and there was a Ch4 program about it. http://www.timesofisrael.com/london-haredim-slam-tv-expose-on-sexual-abuse-in-community/

And does anyone believe this is only a recent phenomenon?
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The clergy of any church has to obey the law just like the rest of us. No-one is or should be above the law. The police and courts should deal with the perpetrators. This should be the case wherever the law is broken. The catholic church has not done itself any favours by failing to deal with this effectively and I don't think many would be content to leave it to them to deal with any more.
 
I've never been abused, and I've never gone to church. Must be safer not to go to church and possibly be non religious?

Someone may correct me but when was there a war based on non-religious grounds?
 
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