rulefan
Tour Winner
Swango1980
Can you explain why the R&A gave different answers to two similar questions.
Can you explain why the R&A gave different answers to two similar questions.
Can't score on stableford - rules on continuing play
- Thread starter LincolnShep
- Start date
doublebogey7
Head Pro
{QUOTE="Swango1980, post: 2074780, member: 26510"]Yes, as long as they dropped an unplayable in the correct position. This was not the situation in the original post though.[/QUOTE]
This is where your argument falls dow to me, in both scenarios they have played from the same place and incurred penalties all be it they are different penalties. I fail to see how one us playing by the rules and the other is not. Your question to the R&A was loaded and so they were bound to give the answer they did as practise on the course, except in some limited cases, always incurs a penalty. I am confident that you would have got a different answer had you merely said the player had dropped a ball in the wrong place.
This is where your argument falls dow to me, in both scenarios they have played from the same place and incurred penalties all be it they are different penalties. I fail to see how one us playing by the rules and the other is not. Your question to the R&A was loaded and so they were bound to give the answer they did as practise on the course, except in some limited cases, always incurs a penalty. I am confident that you would have got a different answer had you merely said the player had dropped a ball in the wrong place.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Ok, so in my scenario, the player didn't immediately say he played a practice shot. But, when asked after, he did admit he did it as he felt it would give him a bit of practice while he waited. No intention to break any rules, he was unaware he couldn't do it. You have seen my question to the R&A. You say it's a loaded question, but the ONLY difference is I said the player admitted he played the shot for practice. The original OP said the player simply said he was just playing one down.
So, basically what you are trying to say, had the player in my situation simply said "I just played one down" or "just did it for a bit of fun", then there would be no penalty. That strikes me as odd, one player gets a penalty for a slip of the tongue, or tries to use the rules to his advantage by not saying it was a practice shot?
It also strikes me as odd if you say the intent must be clear he is playing a practice shot. By giving the ruling in my case, the R&A have already agreed the player completed the hole. So, intent or not, it must be a practice stroke. The player will get feedback from it. I don't see why the R&A would cancel the penalty if intent is unclear, yet in other rules there is no doubt a player gets a penalty when there was no intent whatsoever such as hitting the wrong ball, playing from the wrong place, moving an out of bounds post, etc. Even if the player immediately finds out the mistake and rectified it.
Anyway, I've given the R&A answer to my question, and shown question to be clear. You can interpret that how you see fit. I only ever posted it as I thought it might be helpful. I'm not the R&A, so if you tell me it's OK if the player doesn't say it was for practice, I can only answer my own interpretation, which I'm comfortable with. But, if you disagree, then so be it.
So, basically what you are trying to say, had the player in my situation simply said "I just played one down" or "just did it for a bit of fun", then there would be no penalty. That strikes me as odd, one player gets a penalty for a slip of the tongue, or tries to use the rules to his advantage by not saying it was a practice shot?
It also strikes me as odd if you say the intent must be clear he is playing a practice shot. By giving the ruling in my case, the R&A have already agreed the player completed the hole. So, intent or not, it must be a practice stroke. The player will get feedback from it. I don't see why the R&A would cancel the penalty if intent is unclear, yet in other rules there is no doubt a player gets a penalty when there was no intent whatsoever such as hitting the wrong ball, playing from the wrong place, moving an out of bounds post, etc. Even if the player immediately finds out the mistake and rectified it.
Anyway, I've given the R&A answer to my question, and shown question to be clear. You can interpret that how you see fit. I only ever posted it as I thought it might be helpful. I'm not the R&A, so if you tell me it's OK if the player doesn't say it was for practice, I can only answer my own interpretation, which I'm comfortable with. But, if you disagree, then so be it.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Not sure. You've seen my question and answer. I can't add more than that on behalf of the R&A
robinthehood
Hacker
So you went out of your to talk a fellow golfer in to saying he was practising just so you could engineer a question and response from the R&A?
Oh dear, the lengths some will go to to try and prove a point.
Pretty shameful really.
Last edited:
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
This isn't difficult!
There's the classic situation around Mr Woods in the Masters where his drop was ruled at the time to be within the scope of 'close enough' and the difference without advantage (it was further away). Mr Woods then went on TV to explain why he dropped there, in error, and the advantage he gained.
Yes it was old rules, yes the ultimate ruling was more around committee rulings without taking into account (establishing) the players intention; but the principle is in there.
What the rules set out is that strokes made that can't impact the outcome of a hole aren't automatically designated as practice - they are exempt. This is necessary as the innocent would constantly be penalised when accidentally making a stroke when they could no longer score but didn't realise it.
What the ruling tells us is that the rules were not designed to exempt a player deliberately setting out to practice. In the previous thread the classic situations of setting up the next par 3 distance and playing from there and multiple repeat shots were given as obvious examples. Because the rules accept and permit the making of some strokes whilst any stroke is obviously practice of some nature I still contend that continuing to knock one down the hole being played is fine, even if in the back of the mind the intentions for so doing losely include concepts associated with practice. Setting up situations that aren't consistent with that for the purpose ofmpracticing them isn't.
Swango1980
Well-known member
Unbelievable, and a disgraceful assumption.
The player who brought it up, in his group, was next years captain. The "victim" was his vice captain. The one that brought it up suspected he couldn't do it, and asked me if it would be DQ. I said no, and I asked the guy what happened. He said he just played one up for a bit of practice while he waited. I did not trick him into anything.
I gave my take on it, but said that I would ask the R&A to hold myself and Committee accountable. There was ZERO bad blood with anyone. In fact, it gave us all a laugh and a joke after. The guy it happened to was happy whatever the outcome.
I asked the R&A, they gave their answer. We were correct, but in terms of Player B, we could have given the retrospective penalty, rather than DQ. Again, he is fine with the outcome, as we have done all we can as a Committee to get the answer to those scenarios.
So, I don't have an official answer as to what happens if he never actually said the word practice. But don't accuse me of trying to trick a player into getting a penalty. Because, all that seems to show is you have nothing left to argue, and so you resort to personal jibes.
robinthehood
Hacker
You're doing it again, subtle rewording and re engineering the situation to suit your narrative.
Give it up mate, you were wrong.
TheJezster
Tour Rookie
I think his has pretty much run its course guys. The simple answer is, if you're playing stableford and lose your ball, it's OK to throw another down and play the hole.
The end.
The end.
Backache
Assistant Pro
Unless you declare that your purpose is to practice when it isn't.
was telly the boys about this thread this morning... they all killed themselves
and one of them is a former R&A rules Off
and one of them is a former R&A rules Offeffayjay
Club Champion
I get the feeling that some on here just don't want to believe what Swango has shown to be the definitive position. There is no material difference between the scenario raised with the R&A and the situation I raised in the opening post. None.
I had assumed that this forum was a place for knowledgable and reasonable exchanges, how wrong I was. It is simply a waste of time. Enjoy!
I had assumed that this forum was a place for knowledgable and reasonable exchanges, how wrong I was. It is simply a waste of time. Enjoy!
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
Can someone provide a summary ?
Is this the same as the other question that was asked ?
Stableford - play until you score if not then pick up unless you continuing to play has no detrimental affect on the pace of play.
What else is there to worry about
Is this the same as the other question that was asked ?
Stableford - play until you score if not then pick up unless you continuing to play has no detrimental affect on the pace of play.
What else is there to worry about
robinthehood
Hacker
Swango engineered a specific question to get the response he wanted.
You my friend were 100% wrong in your original thread and still are.
Enjoy!
chrisd
Major Champion
I'm absolutely certain that Swango is wrong but, if he were right, can you imagine the ill feeling where a fellow competitor deliberately asks a loaded question in order to slap on a 2 shot penalty for doing something pretty well every player will have done. I still think the rules are being misunderstood in that, I look for a ball I thought would not be lost but is, and realise that I'm not going to stand a chance of scoring, so any ball I drop and play is simply playing from a wrong place but the penalties for doing that aren't going to apply as each hole is a separate entity and I'm not going to score on it - hole over!
I'm beggared if I'm going to lose a ball on a par 5 that I dont get a shot on and walk the remainder of the hole without dropping a spare ball just in case I get pulled up, especially when we forum members play such places as Sunningdale, Hankley etc we paid to play the holes and I certainly would want to.
I'm beggared if I'm going to lose a ball on a par 5 that I dont get a shot on and walk the remainder of the hole without dropping a spare ball just in case I get pulled up, especially when we forum members play such places as Sunningdale, Hankley etc we paid to play the holes and I certainly would want to.
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
I have read this thread with interest and some of the other .( I'm not going to read 17 pages of the other)😀
My view is that, like in a lot of laws,intent is important as to what is correct.
( I am not discussing what we would do or not do to establish that intent on a golf course-that could be petty or unfriendly etc)
But, what do the rules say, theoretically.
IMO, if someone loses a ball and puts one down to carry on( instead of going back to play from the original place), then why he does that is important, it is the intent I speak of.
1.If he considers he is still playing the hole ( in medal or stableford) and will be hopeful of a score, then he has played from the wrong place and incurs 2 stroke penalty for doing so,or
3. If he considers he has "bombed" the hole in stableford, and has blobbed and has accumulated zero points, but is playing up cos he's there to hit golf balls etc, then he's practising.
I wouldn't ask him which was the reason he carried on, but if he voluntarily says he considered himself "out of the hole" when he lost the ball, then in fairness to other competitors, he has practiced.
In the OP original question, I think his words indicate he considered he had blobbed before carrying on hitting the ball up to the green "No score, just played one down ", I think he said.
Now, where someone who doesn't play wrongly, but just keeps hitting balls up to the green, albeit he obviously is well over a scoring total, then there is no penalty, because of the bit in the rules that says encouraged......etc.
Splitting hairs, I know, but anyone familiar with the law knows that that is common in laws that involve intent.
My view is that, like in a lot of laws,intent is important as to what is correct.
( I am not discussing what we would do or not do to establish that intent on a golf course-that could be petty or unfriendly etc)
But, what do the rules say, theoretically.
IMO, if someone loses a ball and puts one down to carry on( instead of going back to play from the original place), then why he does that is important, it is the intent I speak of.
1.If he considers he is still playing the hole ( in medal or stableford) and will be hopeful of a score, then he has played from the wrong place and incurs 2 stroke penalty for doing so,or
3. If he considers he has "bombed" the hole in stableford, and has blobbed and has accumulated zero points, but is playing up cos he's there to hit golf balls etc, then he's practising.
I wouldn't ask him which was the reason he carried on, but if he voluntarily says he considered himself "out of the hole" when he lost the ball, then in fairness to other competitors, he has practiced.
In the OP original question, I think his words indicate he considered he had blobbed before carrying on hitting the ball up to the green "No score, just played one down ", I think he said.
Now, where someone who doesn't play wrongly, but just keeps hitting balls up to the green, albeit he obviously is well over a scoring total, then there is no penalty, because of the bit in the rules that says encouraged......etc.
Splitting hairs, I know, but anyone familiar with the law knows that that is common in laws that involve intent.
chrisd
Major Champion
It isn't against the rules so why would anyone worry about someone who drops a ball, and, more to the point, why try to get them to admit to practicing just to penalise them?
rulefan
Tour Winner
robinthehood
Hacker
and
https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1799623/practice-during-round
Begs the question, did the OP ever apologise for his epic fail?
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
Concerning my post 56 above,
I have looked at the rules on R&A website and rule 5.5a seems to define the position.
1. A practice stroke during a round is not allowed.
However, as in most laws there are exceptions. There are a number here., in that there are exceptions as to what is a practice stroke.
One of the exceptions is strokes made playing out a hole whose result has been decided.
It is understandably being argued here that "whose result has been decided"
means the same as
However, that last paragraph is defined, not under 5.5a, but under 5.5b/1, in the Official Interpretations of Rule 5. And 5.5b/1 is the rule about when practicing is allowed between holes. Furthermore, the exception
1.
It is not given as an example of when a player is playing a hole.(5.5a)
So, are they the same thing.? It could be taken that they are, from a common sense point of view, (but , in my experience,laws are not interested in common sense. )
However,, I should point out that the practising referred to under 5.5b/1 only allows the practicing of chipping and putting!!
My conclusion is that it would have been clear if #2 definition above had been written into the Interpretations under 5.5a, as they are in 5 5b/1.
It may be they are somewhere, or that "a hole whose result has already been decided" had been similarly defined.
In the absence of that, I'm not so sure that the position is clear.
I have looked at the rules on R&A website and rule 5.5a seems to define the position.
1. A practice stroke during a round is not allowed.
However, as in most laws there are exceptions. There are a number here., in that there are exceptions as to what is a practice stroke.
One of the exceptions is strokes made playing out a hole whose result has been decided.
It is understandably being argued here that "whose result has been decided"
means the same as
- Stableford, Par/ Bogey, and Maximum Score - When the player has holed out, or has picked up after scoring zero points, losing the hole or reaching the maximum score.
However, that last paragraph is defined, not under 5.5a, but under 5.5b/1, in the Official Interpretations of Rule 5. And 5.5b/1 is the rule about when practicing is allowed between holes. Furthermore, the exception
1.
- Stableford, Par/ Bogey, and Maximum Score - When the player has holed out, or has picked up after scoring zero points, losing the hole or reaching the maximum score.
It is not given as an example of when a player is playing a hole.(5.5a)
So, are they the same thing.? It could be taken that they are, from a common sense point of view, (but , in my experience,laws are not interested in common sense. )
However,, I should point out that the practising referred to under 5.5b/1 only allows the practicing of chipping and putting!!
My conclusion is that it would have been clear if #2 definition above had been written into the Interpretations under 5.5a, as they are in 5 5b/1.
It may be they are somewhere, or that "a hole whose result has already been decided" had been similarly defined.
In the absence of that, I'm not so sure that the position is clear.
