Can't score on stableford - rules on continuing play

[rulefan]

That would be the consequence if Swango's answer was deemed to apply to your situation. But IMO it can't, o/w what is rule 21.1b(1) there for?

 

[Swango1980]

A lot of players at my club don’t record their points hole by hole in. Stableford - as they are only required to report the gross score for each hole - and the computer will work it out for them.
I have also often played in what I thought was a strokeplay event only to find when entering the scores that it was in fact a Stableford . I both scenarios players tend to hole out even though they may not be able to score any points - if they knew it was a Stableford competition.From what has been written does that mean that any player who plays shots on a hole after he has used all his strokes should incur a two shot penalty on the next hole?

Nope. That is fine, so long as you continue to play the ball as per the rules as you would do in medal.

The difference in this scenario is that, the player gave up and then decided to drop another ball down (not under the rules). At that point they had completed the hole (when they gave up), so they are now deemed to have played a practice shot between 2 holes.

 

[effayjay]

I'm afraid the specific words you used in the question to the R&A rather set the tone for their answer. Your question doesn't match the situation in the original post here.

Can you please explain how they differ

 

[berniethebolt]

Rule 21.1b in the Player's Edition says "To help pace of play you are encouraged to stop playing a hole when your score will be zero points". This is surely different from saying " .... you must stop playing the hole ....".

 

[Swango1980]

Rule 21.1b in the Player's Edition says "To help pace of play you are encouraged to stop playing a hole when your score will be zero points". This is surely different from saying " .... you must stop playing the hole ....".

Bernie, you are permitted to continue playing, as long as it is under the rules. What cannot be done is give up on the hole, pick your ball up, and then decide to just play from somewhere else. As soon as you pick up, you've completed the hole. So, if you then put another ball down, unless it's done under the correct rule, you are now playing a practice shot which cannot be done.

 

[doublebogey7]

Bernie, you are permitted to continue playing, as long as it is under the rules. What cannot be done is give up on the hole, pick your ball up, and then decide to just play from somewhere else. As soon as you pick up, you've completed the hole. So, if you then put another ball down, unless it's done under the correct rule, you are now playing a practice shot which cannot be done.

What precisely do you mean by under the rules. For example, a 5 handicap player losses both there first and second balls and put the third ball in play from the tee on the 12th hole (a par 4 with a stroke index of 18). Realising he can no longer score and with his ball lying in a divot on the fairway, they proceed by moving their ball to a better lie and continuing the hole from there. Is that playing "under the rules".? Or is it merely a general penalty for playing from the wrong place.

 

[Swango1980]

What precisely do you mean by under the rules. For example, a 5 handicap player losses both there first and second balls and put the third ball in play from the tee on the 12th hole (a par 4 with a stroke index of 18). Realising he can no longer score and with his ball lying in a divot on the fairway, they proceed by moving their ball to a better lie and continuing the hole from there. Is that playing "under the rules".? Or is it merely a general penalty for playing from the wrong place.

Fair question. In that scenario, I'd have to ask what was in the players mind. Presumably, he didn't think he was playing correctly under the rules, and only did so because he was already out of the hole. Therefore, he'd have given up on the hole, and was playing a practice stroke (between the play of holes). It would be interesting if he said "he thought it was OK, as he didn't think you had to play out of divots, or he thought is was preferred lies". It is unlikey any of those excuses go far.

In terms of wrong place, getting punished for that will often (if not always?) apply when you take an incorrect drop, whether it is relief or unplayable, etc. But, in doing so the golfer believes they are doing the right thing until told otherwise, and need to take the appropriate penalty. Intentionally putting your ball in the wrong place and playing from there would either be cheating, or in the case we are discussing, practicing between the play of 2 holes.

 

[rulefan]

Can you please explain how they differ

You said specifically that the player intended to play practice strokes. The player in the OP did not.
I previously corresponded with the R&A re the original question. And was given the response I mentioned. I subsequently followed up with a slightly different question for which I had an email response.
Q. In a stableford competition, a member sliced his tee shot about 50 yards on a short par 4. He walked forward but can’t find it and realised it was possibly out of bounds. He dropped and continued with another ball. When asked what he was doing he said words to the effect ‘No score. I’m just playing this ball along with you’.

A. He’s not followed correct procedure by going back to the tee, then he doesn’t score any points on the hole. Rule 5.5a would apply as the result has already been decided. (Strokes made by a player in playing out a hole whose result has been decided).

 

[doublebogey7]

Fair question. In that scenario, I'd have to ask what was in the players mind. Presumably, he didn't think he was playing correctly under the rules, and only did so because he was already out of the hole. Therefore, he'd have given up on the hole, and was playing a practice stroke (between the play of holes). It would be interesting if he said "he thought it was OK, as he didn't think you had to play out of divots, or he thought is was preferred lies". It is unlikey any of those excuses go far.

In terms of wrong place, getting punished for that will often (if not always?) apply when you take an incorrect drop, whether it is relief or unplayable, etc. But, in doing so the golfer believes they are doing the right thing until told otherwise, and need to take the appropriate penalty. Intentionally putting your ball in the wrong place and playing from there would either be cheating, or in the case we are discussing, practicing between the play of 2 holes.

So rather than moving the ball they had taken a penalty drop for an unplayable ball from the divot I assume they would have been ok in your view.

 

[berniethebolt]

It would have been very easy to state in rule 21.1b "In a stableford competition, once you cannot score on a hole you must not play any further shots on that hole. Any further shots are considered practice on that hole and will incur the designated penalty on the next hole".
Nor only does it not say this but it specifically states otherwise (as quoted earlier). Presumably because those who wrote the rules realised that it was not reasonable as long as so doing did not hold up play. Give the R&A a little credit for trying to be sensible and not engage in hair splitting over shots 'played under the rules' etc.

 

[Swango1980]

So rather than moving the ball they had taken a penalty drop for an unplayable ball from the divot I assume they would have been ok in your view.

Yes, as long as they dropped an unplayable in the correct position. This was not the situation in the original post though.

 

[Swango1980]

It would have been very easy to state in rule 21.1b "In a stableford competition, once you cannot score on a hole you must not play any further shots on that hole. Any further shots are considered practice on that hole and will incur the designated penalty on the next hole".
Nor only does it not say this but it specifically states otherwise (as quoted earlier). Presumably because those who wrote the rules realised that it was not reasonable as long as so doing did not hold up play. Give the R&A a little credit for trying to be sensible and not engage in hair splitting over shots 'played under the rules' etc.

Wording to that effect would be disastrous. You would then be penalising players who didn't realise they could no longer score, for example.

 

[Swango1980]

You said specifically that the player intended to play practice strokes. The player in the OP did not.
I previously corresponded with the R&A re the original question. And was given the response I mentioned. I subsequently followed up with a slightly different question for which I had an email response.
Q. In a stableford competition, a member sliced his tee shot about 50 yards on a short par 4. He walked forward but can’t find it and realised it was possibly out of bounds. He dropped and continued with another ball. When asked what he was doing he said words to the effect ‘No score. I’m just playing this ball along with you’.

A. He’s not followed correct procedure by going back to the tee, then he doesn’t score any points on the hole. Rule 5.5a would apply as the result has already been decided. (Strokes made by a player in playing out a hole whose result has been decided).

OK then. So, the R&A's position, in your opinion is that, if a player admits to playing a practice stroke, then penalty applies. But, if he does not admit to it, he is safe in terms of not getting penalised for playing a practice stroke. That is an interesting position. Personally, I'll refrain personally to ever try my luck on that one

 

[rulefan]

OK then. So, the R&A's position, in your opinion is that, if a player admits to playing a practice stroke, then penalty applies. But, if he does not admit to it, he is safe in terms of not getting penalised for playing a practice stroke. That is an interesting position. Personally, I'll refrain personally to ever try my luck on that one

Can you explain why the R&A gave different answers to two similar questions.
Could it be that there is a pertinent difference in the questions?

 

[2blue]

OK then. So, the R&A's position, in your opinion is that, if a player admits to playing a practice stroke, then penalty applies. But, if he does not admit to it, he is safe in terms of not getting penalised for playing a practice stroke. That is an interesting position. Personally, I'll refrain personally to ever try my luck on that one

Not sure you're going anywhere very purposeful with this one...... more important things to pursue really.

 

[berniethebolt]

Wording to that effect would be disastrous. You would then be penalising players who didn't realise they could no longer score, for example.

But players are expected to know the rules. I am not allowed to kick a ball out of the rough into the fairway. Are you suggesting that if I do not realise this then I am being penalised if I do so? That is ridiculous!
1

 

[SammmeBee]

Cannot do what he asked in the question (drop another ball and just play up to hole without scoring). Well, you can do it, but you get a penalty on next hole if you do so.

Can you explain and let us know which Rule covers this please...

 

[Swango1980]

Can you explain and let us know which Rule covers this please...

See other related thread, where I posted R&A response

 

[Swango1980]

But players are expected to know the rules. I am not allowed to kick a ball out of the rough into the fairway. Are you suggesting that if I do not realise this then I am being penalised if I do so? That is ridiculous!
1

Nope, I didn't say that in slightest, interesting interpretation of words though.

 

[SammmeBee]

See other related thread, where I posted R&A response

Yes I saw the question you asked to The R&A - I was asking about the similar but not quite the same scenario you mentioned above.....