Can FC find AND "identify" my ball if I am not present ?

[sev112]

I hit my drive into rough, very long rough. Wasn't obvious off the tee.
On arrival after no more than a couple minutes searching I head back off to the tee and hit another ball so as to not hold up play.
In order to do that, I head back through the trees so lose sight of my FCs (it's a dogleg hole)
I hit another ball off the tee
As I get round the corner of the dogleg it transpires that my FCs have found my ball (within the 5 minutes) and clearly identified it -it was a Yellow Srixon with two blue Ss on it .
They both stated that they were happy that they had found it within 5 minutes of starting the search and therefore it remained the ball in play, even though I went back to the tee and hit another ball.

Does this sound right to all?

 

[Lump]

I hit my drive into rough, very long rough. Wasn't obvious off the tee.
On arrival after no more than a couple minutes searching I head back off to the tee and hit another ball so as to not hold up play.
In order to do that, I head back through the trees so lose sight of my FCs (it's a dogleg hole)
I hit another ball off the tee
As I get round the corner of the dogleg it transpires that my FCs have found my ball (within the 5 minutes) and clearly identified it -it was a Yellow Srixon with two blue Ss on it .
They both stated that they were happy that they had found it within 5 minutes of starting the search and therefore it remained the ball in play, even though I went back to the tee and hit another ball.

Does this sound right to all?

Did you declare you where off to play another, or play a provisional?

 

[rosecott]

I hit my drive into rough, very long rough. Wasn't obvious off the tee.
On arrival after no more than a couple minutes searching I head back off to the tee and hit another ball so as to not hold up play.
In order to do that, I head back through the trees so lose sight of my FCs (it's a dogleg hole)
I hit another ball off the tee
As I get round the corner of the dogleg it transpires that my FCs have found my ball (within the 5 minutes) and clearly identified it -it was a Yellow Srixon with two blue Ss on it .
They both stated that they were happy that they had found it within 5 minutes of starting the search and therefore it remained the ball in play, even though I went back to the tee and hit another ball.

Does this sound right to all?

It's all in the timing. If you put the second ball into play before they found the original, then the second ball is the ball in play. If they found the original within the 5 minutes and it was before you struck the second ball, then the original ball is the ball in play - and you have to identify it.

 

[DCB]

And...... you can't go back to play a provisional

 

[Colin L]

Did you declare you where off to play another, or play a provisional?

It doesn't matter what he said, and by the way he couldn't go back to play a provisional ball. Had his FCs been able to catch his attention before he played another ball, he could have come back to identify his ball (indeed he would have been obliged to) and played it. Even if by the time he is called back and reaches his ball the five minutes are up, that's ok: the ball was found within the time.

Unfortunately, because he was not in a position to hear or see his FCs, he put another ball into play under Rule 27-1 (stroke and distance) and he must continue with it. His original ball was lost (even though his FCs were staring at it) the moment he played the substituted ball.


Edit: I am seeing this differently from Rosecott, but will leave my original unchanged, (mainly because I think I am right Bear in mind that a player could find and identify his ball and decide to go back and play under stroke and distance. It's not the finding that matters, but the action of putting another ball into play correctly under 27-1.

Well, that's how I see it.

 

[sev112]

It doesn't matter what he said, and by the way he couldn't go back to play a provisional ball. Had his FCs been able to catch his attention before he played another ball, he could have come back to identify his ball (indeed he would have been obliged to) and played it. Even if by the time he is called back and reaches his ball the five minutes are up, that's ok: the ball was found within the time.

Unfortunately, because he was not in a position to hear or see his FCs, he put another ball into play under Rule 27-1 (stroke and distance) and he must continue with it. His original ball was lost (even though his FCs were staring at it) the moment he played the substituted ball.


Edit: I am seeing this differently from Rosecott, but will leave my original unchanged, (mainly because I think I am right Bear in mind that a player could find and identify his ball and decide to go back and play under stroke and distance. It's not the finding that matters, but the action of putting another ball into play correctly under 27-1.

Well, that's how I see it.

Hence the question - the ball was declared found and identified as mine (by FCs) BEFORE I hit again from the tee.

So the question is related precisely to that point - when they found it and identified it as mine, does that remain the ball in play irrespective of what I subsequently do with the other ball?

 

[Lump]

You learn something everyday.

What is the rule that stops you going back and play a provo while your partners continue to search for your first? It seems like an odd rule unless someone could explain it more?...

 

[chrisd]

You learn something everyday.

What is the rule that stops you going back and play a provo while your partners continue to search for your first? It seems like an odd rule unless someone could explain it more?...

The option to play a provisional has to be taken whilst the player is at the teeing ground. The objective being to save time in walking back to play again, so, you can't walk back to play a provisional as you are not saving any time.

 

[Colin L]

So the question is related precisely to that point - when they found it and identified it as mine, does that remain the ball in play irrespective of what I subsequently do with the other ball?

The Definition of a ball in play includes that it is “in play” ..........except when another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play.

As I understand what happened you substituted another ball - it is in the ball in play. The finding of your ball by your FCs is not material.

 

[rulefan]

Hence the question - the ball was declared found and identified as mine (by FCs) BEFORE I hit again from the tee.

So the question is related precisely to that point - when they found it and identified it as mine, does that remain the ball in play irrespective of what I subsequently do with the other ball?

It is only the player who is required to identify his ball. The requirement does not mention anyone else.
He can only be required to identify it if he knows a ball, which may be his, has been found. Which he didn't.
But in any case, his substituting a ball under 27-1 makes it all irrelevant, the substituted ball is the ball in play.

 

[MashieNiblick]

You learn something everyday.

What is the rule that stops you going back and play a provo while your partners continue to search for your first? It seems like an odd rule unless someone could explain it more?...

Just to expand on Chris's response the Rule is 27-2 which says

27-2 - Provisional Ball

a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

 

[Lump]

Just to expand on Chris's response the Rule is 27-2 which says

27-2 - Provisional Ball

a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.

Much appreciated. Knowing the exact wording clears things up.

 

[6inchcup]

I was always led to believe once you had turned your back on the ball and stopped looking and decided to go back to the tee and play another,the original was declared lost,even if the 5 mins was not up,in this case I would say the original was lost as the op was not actively looking for it.

 

[Colin L]

I was always led to believe once you had turned your back on the ball and stopped looking and decided to go back to the tee and play another,the original was declared lost,even if the 5 mins was not up,in this case I would say the original was lost as the op was not actively looking for it.

Unfortunately, you have been misled to believe that - perhaps by those in a 1960ish time-warp.

Just read through the Definition of a lost ball and you'll see that none of turning your back, walking back, making declarations or anything similar appear. Your ball is lost if


a.. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or

b. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or

c. The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule 26-1a, 27-1 or 28a; or

d. The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule 18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see Rule 26-1b or c); or

e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball.

 

[Foxholer]

I agree with Colin!

And 1 further point. Should the ball be found by the FCs within the 5 minutes, the Player has a reasonable amount of time to confirm that it is his. I thought there was a Decision about this, but cannot find one. However, the 'or identified as his' covers this situation

I believe my 2 FCs wrong impressions of 'Declaring a ball lost' cost me my first sub-Par (possibly even a -2!) round some time ago, so misconceptions in this area are one of my 'hobby-horses'!

Once player has put another ball in player, the first ball is 'Lost' even if it had been found and pocketed, as happened in my situation above, or player hadn't realised, as in the OP.

 

[6inchcup]

But would the phrase " I am going back to play another",then stop looking for the original ball constitute you have declared it lost,is the onus on the player to look for his ball or the opponents,everyone helps to look for it but it is surly the player who's ball it is to look for the allocated 5 mins and not rely on his opponents to find it as he goes back to the tee,in this situation I would expect the decision to wether it be declared lost prior to going back,as soon as the player stops looking then so would I.

 

[Foxholer]

But would the phrase " I am going back to play another",then stop looking for the original ball constitute you have declared it lost,is the onus on the player to look for his ball or the opponents,everyone helps to look for it but it is surly the player who's ball it is to look for the allocated 5 mins and not rely on his opponents to find it as he goes back to the tee,in this situation I would expect the decision to wether it be declared lost prior to going back,as soon as the player stops looking then so would I.

As per the Rules, a ball becomes lost by events, not by 'declaring it so'. It's quite acceptable to head back to play another ball and request the FCs, or your Playing Partner, continue to search for the original. The Player has the right to expect a reasonable quality search to be performed.

Likewise, in a Match, if you hit your Provisional 2 inches from the pin you can't declare you first lost and your opponent is quite entitled to look for it.

 

[6inchcup]

As per the Rules, a ball becomes lost by events, not by 'declaring it so'. It's quite acceptable to head back to play another ball and request the FCs, or your Playing Partner, continue to search for the original. The Player has the right to expect a reasonable quality search to be performed.

Likewise, in a Match, if you hit your Provisional 2 inches from the pin you can't declare you first lost and your opponent is quite entitled to look for it.

i understand the rules,but what i don't understand is your view on it take the following scenario,you hit a big draw into a blind dogleg left,when you get to we're you think your ball is your met with the thickest spikyest gorse and brambles known to man,you take a look then say,"tell you what lads I'm going back to the tee and playing a provisional,when I get to the tee dive into the brambles and spend 5 mins looking for my ball I will see you in a bit,thanks oh and make sure you search properly" I think you would get a few expletives back if you played in the company I keep,could you quote the rule that states your opponent HAS to search for your ball,I know we all do but is it an actual rule of the game.

 

[Colin L]

But would the phrase " I am going back to play another",then stop looking for the original ball constitute you have declared it lost,is the onus on the player to look for his ball or the opponents,everyone helps to look for it but it is surly the player who's ball it is to look for the allocated 5 mins and not rely on his opponents to find it as he goes back to the tee,in this situation I would expect the decision to wether it be declared lost prior to going back,as soon as the player stops looking then so would I.

Please write out 100 times

I cannot declare a ball lost

Sorry, you can retire the man from teaching, but you never retire the teacher in him.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Please write out 100 times

I cannot declare a ball lost

Sorry, you can retire the man from teaching, but you never retire the teacher in him.

Then write out another 100 times.

"I cannot go back to play a provisional"