Can a General Penalty be Retrospectively Applied

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Playing stableford scoring. Can a General Penalty be applied at the end of the round, and before card is signed, for a rule infringement pointed out to the player and accepted by him earlier in the round.

Does any decision made at the time of the infringement to not apply the GP hold any water if the player signing the card subsequently, and at the end of the round, thinks that the GP should be applied regardless given the rule breach was obvious and agreed by the player.

The reason there was leniency at the time of the infringement was that it was a friendly rollup round. The reason the marker required the GP to be applied at the end was that the player was likely to win some of the prize pot. The marker pointed out that he did not agree to the leniency at the time and would not sign the card if the GP was not applied.

 

[woofers]

Sounds a right mess.
It’s a ‘friendly roll up’ but not so friendly now that the player might win. But he only ‘wins’ if he and his marker agree to ignore a rule of golf - which is not allowed under the Rules of Golf anyway. And how do the rest of the roll up feel about this ability to pick and chose which rules to apply.
I think you have been involved in golf long enough to know the right answer to this, all it does for me is make me wary of what goes on in ‘unofficial competitions’ and why I avoid them.

 

[chrisd]

The marker pointed out that he did not agree to the leniency at the time and would not sign the card if the GP was not applied.

He shouldn't have ignored the infringement at the time then wouldn't have got in this mess

 

[rulefan]

Playing stableford scoring. Can a General Penalty be applied at the end of the round, and before card is signed, for a rule infringement pointed out to the player and accepted by him earlier in the round.

Does any decision made at the time of the infringement to not apply the GP hold any water if the player signing the card subsequently, and at the end of the round, thinks that the GP should be applied regardless given the rule breach was obvious and agreed by the player.

The reason there was leniency at the time of the infringement was that it was a friendly rollup round. The reason the marker required the GP to be applied at the end was that the player was likely to win some of the prize pot. The marker pointed out that he did not agree to the leniency at the time and would not sign the card if the GP was not applied.

If a player knows that they have breached a Rule that involves a penalty and deliberately fails to apply the penalty, the player is disqualified.

a player must be disqualified even after the competition is closed if they:

• Returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken. Except the player is not disqualified if the reason for the lower score is the exclusion of one or more penalty strokes that they did not know about before the competition closed (see Rule 3.3b(3)),
• Knew before the competition had closed that they were in breach of any other Rule with a penalty of disqualification, or
• Agreed with another player to ignore any Rule or penalty they knew applied (see Rule 1.3b(1)).

 

[rulie]

It can be corrected until the card is returned. In fact, it must be corrected or both players are dq’d.

 

[Colin L]

Playing stableford scoring. Can a General Penalty be applied at the end of the round, and before card is signed, for a rule infringement pointed out to the player and accepted by him earlier in the round.

I don't see a problem in a player's being persuaded to do the right thing and include the penalty, provided he does so before retuning his card and he had not entered into any agreement to ignore it.

Does any decision made at the time of the infringement to not apply the GP hold any water if the player signing the card subsequently, and at the end of the round, thinks that the GP should be applied regardless given the rule breach was obvious and agreed by the player.

The second bullet point of 1.3b(1) indicates that if the player had made an agreement with any other player to ignore a penalty, they are both disqualified for making the agreement regardless of whether there was any outcome to it.

The reason there was leniency at the time of the infringement was that it was a friendly rollup round. The reason the marker required the GP to be applied at the end was that the player was likely to win some of the prize pot. The marker pointed out that he did not agree to the leniency at the time and would not sign the card if the GP was not applied.

. You're talking of a formal round with card and marker and some money at stake that is at the same time a friendly roll-up. You can and should have a friendly occasion without compromising the integrity of the game. Someone needs to have a quiet word with the player. The marker acted correctly.

 

[salfordlad]

Some somewhat blunt answers:

"Playing stableford scoring. Can a General Penalty be applied at the end of the round, and before card is signed, for a rule infringement pointed out to the player and accepted by him earlier in the round."

It must be added. If not, everyone involved in a decision not to add a known penalty is in breach and can/should be DQed.

"Does any decision made at the time of the infringement to not apply the GP hold any water if the player signing the card subsequently, and at the end of the round, thinks that the GP should be applied regardless given the rule breach was obvious and agreed by the player."

Decisions to cheat on the score hold no water whenever they occur. Submitted cards should only contain correct scores (or non-scoring holes in Stableford). Any uncertainties about rules issues should be resolved before submitting the card.

"The reason there was leniency at the time of the infringement was that it was a friendly rollup round. The reason the marker required the GP to be applied at the end was that the player was likely to win some of the prize pot. The marker pointed out that he did not agree to the leniency at the time and would not sign the card if the GP was not applied."

There is no such thing as "leniency" if it is a competition or a card for handicap purposes. Thankfully, the marker is protecting/upholding the integrity of the rules and all should learn from this. It's either social golf among your own group doing whatever or a competition by the rules - there isn't any half-way house.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Of course I was the marker, marking a card for all four of us in the group.

The player in breach (A) was about to tee off on 11 from the wrong tee, and I called out a warning. He went ahead taking his tee shot. I told he had played from the wrong tee and I had warned him…he claimed he didn’t hear. I said it was a two shot penalty. One of the other of our group (B) said it was only a rollup - I should‘t take it that seriously - after all we give gimmes. The fourth of our group (C) mentioned quietly to me that he wasn’t happy to ignore it, but didn’t say it to the other two - I sensed he didn’t want to be viewed as a ‘grouch’ by them.

We played the hole and putted out. I asked player A (in breach) his score…giving him opportunity to include the GP. He told me his score and pts without the GP. I expressed my disapproval, but wrote it down and put an asterisk beside it with footnote Wrong Tee. I was not going to just ‘forget about it’. And we continued.

Walking from 18th tee I mentioned to B that A only needed to score 2pts with a shot on the last for 40pts and as that was likely to be in the mix for some prize money I would not be signing the card unless we applied the GP. He understood. I then spoke with C and told him the same - that I would not be signing the card. He changed his tune when he knew that A could win money…not fair on others.

A scored 2pts on last. As we walked from green I called out to A as he stood with B and C…well what are we doing about your score given your tee shot on 11. B and C both said the GP should be applied. I’d laid the ground…. A rather grudgingly agreed, muttering that we‘d agreed to ignore it. I ignored him and adjusted his score on the 11th accordingly. Then signed the card.

I know I should have been firm earlier, but it was clear to me that had I been so there would have been an ‘atmosphere’ for the rest of the round, and though competitive this was friendly and not too serious golf. And it wasn’t a WHS qualifier.

Just wanted to check that the GP could be applied retrospectively as I did today.

 

[rulie]

Of course I was the marker, marking a card for all four of us in the group.

The player in breach (A) was about to tee off on 11 from the wrong tee, and I called out a warning. He went ahead taking his tee shot. I told he had played from the wrong tee and I had warned him…he claimed he didn’t hear. I said it was a two shot penalty. One of the other of our group (B) said it was only a rollup - I should‘t take it that seriously - after all we give gimmes. The fourth of our group (C) mentioned quietly to me that he wasn’t happy to ignore it, but didn’t say it to the other two.

We played the hole and putted out. I asked player A (in breach) his score…giving him opportunity to include the GP. He told me his score and pts without the GP. I expressed my disapproval, but wrote it down and put an asterisk beside it with footnote Wrong Tee. And we continued.

Walking from 18th tee I mentioned to B that A only needed to score 2pts with a shot on the last for 40pts and as that was likely to be in the mix for some prize money I would not be signing the card unless we applied the GP. He agreed. I then spoke with C and told him the same - that I would not be signing the card. He changed his tune when he knew that A could win money…not fair on others.

A scored 2pts on last. As we walked from green I called out to A as he stood with B and C…well what are we doing about your score given your tee shot on 11. B and C both said the GP should be applied. A rather grudgingly agreed, muttering that we‘d agreed to ignore it. I ignored him and adjusted his score on the 11th accordingly. Then signed the card.

I know I should have been firm earlier, but it was clear to me that had I been so there would have been an ‘atmosphere’ for the rest of the round, and though competitive this was friendly and not too serious golf.

Just wanted to check that the GP could be applied retrospectively as I did today.

There is no penalty to be applied in this situation. The player played from outside the teeing area and did not correct that error before he played from the next tee. In normal stroke play, he would be dq'd. In Stableford, he scores zero points on that hole.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There is no penalty to be applied in this situation. The player played from outside the teeing area and did not correct that error before he played from the next tee. In normal stroke play, he would be dq'd. In Stableford, he scores zero points on that hole.

So I was wrong . Damn. I know better next time. As it happens adding the GP meant he scored no points on the hole so same outcome though I got to it the wrong way.

 

[salfordlad]

It's interesting that there are so many different timing deadlines in applying the rules. The key ones from the player's perspective are a) get the card right before certifying/submitting; b) if you then learn new critical information relevant to correct scores, getting it to the Committee before the competition closes will help the Committee completely close out the competition; or c) if you learn new critical information relevant to correct scores after the competition closes, still pass them on to the Committee because there are certain misbehaviours that Committees are still required to act on even if it doesn't change the competition results.
Swingsit's comments also highlight getting it right on the card when the hole is finished is the easiest way to get it right before submitting the card.

 

[salfordlad]

There is no penalty to be applied in this situation. The player played from outside the teeing area and did not correct that error before he played from the next tee. In normal stroke play, he would be dq'd. In Stableford, he scores zero points on that hole.

That is not the way I read it: zero points for the hole in Stableford play is the penalty for the breach of 6.1b(2) and failing to correct as outlined in 21.1c. The words in the both rules relating to the penalty are red texted, meaning this is the penalty for the breach.

 

[IanMcC]

That is not the way I read it: zero points for the hole in Stableford play is the penalty for the breach of 6.1b(2) and failing to correct as outlined in 21.1c. The words in the both rules relating to the penalty are red texted, meaning this is the penalty for the breach.

21.1c Penalties in Stableford All penalties that apply in stroke play apply in Stableford, except that a player who breaches any of these five Rules is not disqualified but gets zero points for the hole where the breach happened:
• Failure to hole out under Rule 3.3c,
• Failure to correct mistake of playing from outside the teeing area in starting a hole (see Rule 6.1b(2)),
• Failure to correct mistake of playing a wrong ball (see Rule 6.3c),
• Failure to correct mistake of playing from a wrong place when there is a serious breach (see Rule 14.7b), or
• Failure to correct mistake of making a stroke in the wrong order (see Rule 22.3). If the player breaches any other Rule with a penalty of disqualification, the player is disqualified. After applying any penalty strokes, the player’s Stableford score for a hole cannot be lower than zero points

 

[Steven Rules]

I should‘t take it that seriously - after all we give gimmes

You whaaaattttt?????????

 

[Steven Rules]

I know I should have been firm earlier, but it was clear to me that had I been so there would have been an ‘atmosphere’ for the rest of the round,

It's a shame that players should feel bad about pointing out a fellow competitor's blatant and arrogant rule breach. He's the one who ignored the rule. Why shouldn't he be the one feeling bad and sheepish?

 

[jim8flog]

One of the things I get from this and something I often hear where I play in roll ups is

" it is only a bit of fun and we should not take the rules seriously"

(a) something in the main I fully disagree with as it puts those that will play fully to the rules at a disadvantage
(b) it is very easy to start to let it slip and start acting in the same way in comps.

However if it is just a bit of fun between mates that is an entirely different matter.

 

[2blue]

" it is only a bit of fun and we should not take the rules seriously"
.

Yes, just get people to use their Common sense!! What's the problem??

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes, just get people to use their Common sense!! What's the problem??

It’s a very different thing giving someone a 12” putt - in a NQ round that being a common sense action to keep things moving - and ignoring a General Penalty breach of the rules. Most especially when there is a bit of £s at stake and the competitors are wider than the one group. The gimme is something every group in the comp would do - there won’t be that many (I suspect very few indeed) GP breaches across the groups.

 

[Steven Rules]

It’s a very different thing giving someone a 12” putt - in a NQ round that being a common sense action to keep things moving - and ignoring a General Penalty breach of the rules

How is it different? The root cause of the problem seems to be that you are all subjectively picking and choosing which rules to enforce and which rules are ok to ignore. You are adamant about enforcing a particular general penalty but you seem to have no problem ignoring a breach that carries a penalty of DQ.

No wonder there is ill feeling. Who has the final word on what to enforce and what to ignore?

 

[Swango1980]

It’s a very different thing giving someone a 12” putt - in a NQ round that being a common sense action to keep things moving - and ignoring a General Penalty breach of the rules. Most especially when there is a bit of £s at stake and the competitors are wider than the one group. The gimme is something every group in the comp would do - there won’t be that many (I suspect very few indeed) GP breaches across the groups.

I have played with people who give ridiculous putts, outside 2 or 3 foot. Yet I have seen people miss from inside a foot.

If playing for £, it is quite cunning if one player gives 2 or 3 foot putts, or even outside that. Because it increases the chances the people they play with will give the same in return. Whilst players in other groups may be missing putts from that range, none of your group need to worry. The odds of the winner coming from that group are therefore elevated.

If groups are playing gimmes, fine. But I'll never pay in or compete for a cash prize. I'll just have a knock, and hole out myself so that my score is valid for handicap.