Burrowing Animal.... or was it?

[FaldosJumper]

Played a match play comp last week and have just remembered I wanted to ask the question... I play a shot and it goes into shrubs, upon finding it, it's in a hole or probably a scraping at the base of a tree. What was decided that the ball was in a burrowing animals hole and as such I could get a free one clubs length drop, I then went on to lose the hole :mmm:

Upon finishing I looked up the rules and the description of a burrowing animal is one that makes a hole for a home or shelter. Now I do believe this hole, a size roughly 12 inches by 6 and a depth of 3-5, would have been used by an animal for shelter but would that suffice if it was say a cat that decided hiding under a tree and digging a bit of hole to protect it from the elements or is it just one of those unknowns and a best guess is OK?

Another point I've read is as the ball was next to a tree I'd have to have taken a ball unplayable and drop 2 club lengths under penalty of one stroke? However, the ball if ground level, I could have knocked it sideways onto the fairway anyway so wasn't necessarily unplayable but I did gain an advantage as after the drop I was able to advance the ball forward.

If, I haven't been too clear please feel free to clarify with me but thanks in advance for any pointers/corrections.

 

[duncan mackie]

I understand the 2 questions

1. was it? - in a match if you can agree between you then that's the answer. If you can't, or it's stroke play and there's any doubt, then the committee rule. In a match with disagreement you would have to decide what you thought and proceed on that basis - if your opponent disagrees he must claim setting out the basis of his claim and you get a ruling later.
2. if I couldn't play it anyway? - you need to separate the element from which you are entitled to relief from the surroundings. you seem to have done that when you state "However, the ball if ground level, I could have knocked it sideways onto the fairway anyway" and as it would have been practicable to play some shot of this nature (or even less successfully!) then the exception to 25-1b wouldn't apply.

 

[FaldosJumper]

I understand the 2 questions

1. was it? - in a match if you can agree between you then that's the answer. If you can't, or it's stroke play and there's any doubt, then the committee rule. In a match with disagreement you would have to decide what you thought and proceed on that basis - if your opponent disagrees he must claim setting out the basis of his claim and you get a ruling later.
2. if I couldn't play it anyway? - you need to separate the element from which you are entitled to relief from the surroundings. you seem to have done that when you state "However, the ball if ground level, I could have knocked it sideways onto the fairway anyway" and as it would have been practicable to play some shot of this nature (or even less successfully!) then the exception to 25-1b wouldn't apply.

Great stuff... thanks DM

 

[FaldosJumper]

Just reading 25-1 further... my 1 club length was from the ball, could I have got the nearest point of relief 1st then measured and dropped?

My scenario was I was still in bushes, so I wonder if I could've dropped out of there and had a full swing rather than a restricted one...

 

[Foxholer]

Just reading 25-1 further... my 1 club length was from the ball, could I have got the nearest point of relief 1st then measured and dropped?

My scenario was I was still in bushes, so I wonder if I could've dropped out of there and had a full swing rather than a restricted one...

Leaving aside the question of whether you were actually entitled to free relief.....Yes. You determine nearest point of relief, then drop within 1 club length of that. That may or may not have got you out of the bush. Doesn't seem as though it would have though as you would only have got 6-12 inches more 'relief' - from the condition. Your drop that was 1 club from the ball was almost certainly also within 1 club length of NPoR, so a valid drop - just not the maximum distance allowed.

Worth remembering too that the ball can roll a further 2 club lengths, so that you could possibly end up nearly 3 club lengths from the condition.b

 

[duncan mackie]

Leaving aside the question of whether you were actually entitled to free relief.....Yes. You determine nearest point of relief, then drop within 1 club length of that. That may or may not have got you out of the bush. Doesn't seem as though it would have though as you would only have got 6-12 inches more 'relief' - from the condition. Your drop that was 1 club from the ball was almost certainly also within 1 club length of NPoR, so a valid drop - just not the maximum distance allowed.

Worth remembering too that the ball can roll a further 2 club lengths, so that you could possibly end up nearly 3 club lengths from the condition.b

:thup:

on a theme, sometimes you can even drop such that a separate condition enables you to take further relief.....although it's more often that case with me that when I try this I end up in a hole on a path with relief back in the bushes!

 

[atticusfinch]

Remember, a scrape is not a hole no matter what made it.

 

[palindromicbob]

Played a match play comp last week and have just remembered I wanted to ask the question... I play a shot and it goes into shrubs, upon finding it, it's in a hole or probably a scraping at the base of a tree. What was decided that the ball was in a burrowing animals hole and as such I could get a free one clubs length drop, I then went on to lose the hole :mmm:

Upon finishing I looked up the rules and the description of a burrowing animal is one that makes a hole for a home or shelter. Now I do believe this hole, a size roughly 12 inches by 6 and a depth of 3-5, would have been used by an animal for shelter but would that suffice if it was say a cat that decided hiding under a tree and digging a bit of hole to protect it from the elements or is it just one of those unknowns and a best guess is OK?

Another point I've read is as the ball was next to a tree I'd have to have taken a ball unplayable and drop 2 club lengths under penalty of one stroke? However, the ball if ground level, I could have knocked it sideways onto the fairway anyway so wasn't necessarily unplayable but I did gain an advantage as after the drop I was able to advance the ball forward.

If, I haven't been too clear please feel free to clarify with me but thanks in advance for any pointers/corrections.

You can deem a ball unplayable anywhere on the course (except a water hazard) and take 2 club length drop under penalty. Doesn't actually need to be physically unplayable. You are the sole judge. Could be as simple as dropping in from the semi into the fairway because you don't like the lie.

 

[atticusfinch]

You can deem a ball unplayable anywhere on the course (except a water hazard) and take 2 club length drop under penalty. Doesn't actually need to be physically unplayable. You are the sole judge. Could be as simple as dropping in from the semi into the fairway because you don't like the lie.

2 CL from the ball, not the NPR.

 

[FaldosJumper]

Remember, a scrape is not a hole no matter what made it.

Yeah, I stated scrape as it was a trench like shape whereas my thinking of a hole being a circular hole, tom and jerry type hole... either way it was obviously animal made but by what, I was unsure.

 

[rosecott]

2 CL from the ball, not the NPR.

NPR is not applicable when declaring the ball unplayable - you may be confusing some people.

 

[atticusfinch]

NPR is not applicable when declaring the ball unplayable - you may be confusing some people.

That was my point.

 

[rosecott]

That was my point.

And my point is that mentioning NPR in the context of declaring unplayable can lead to confusion. I'd be a very rich man if you gave me a dollar for any occasion when one of our seniors started talking about NPR when he meant an unplayable declaration.

 

[shagster]

Remember, a scrape is not a hole no matter what made it.

i think you will find that if a scrape is made by a burrowing animal you get free relief.
there was a question about relief from a scrape behind a tree on the r&a rule quiz a while ago/
what is the definition of a hole?
regards

shagster

 

[Colin L]

i think you will find that if a scrape is made by a burrowing animal you get free relief.
there was a question about relief from a scrape behind a tree on the r&a rule quiz a while ago/
what is the definition of a hole?
regards

shagster

I think you will find by reading the definition of an abnormal ground condition that you won't.

A hole is not defined in the Rules but however you define a hole, it's not just a bit of earth that's been scraped at. I look at it as an opening in the ground made by burrowing animal, bird or reptile made for going into, putting eggs into - some sort of purpose that involves something going into the hole . In the case of the burrowing animal it would be made for the purpose of living in.

As an example, there is on my course an area which is regularly roughed up by badgers - rooting I suppose for worms and grubs. We have to mark this area off as GUR because although very extensively "scraped" by a burrowing animal, it does not meet the Definition of an abnormal ground condition. There is plenty of ground damage, but no actual holes.

 

[rulefan]

Colin is correct about the interpretation. It has to be significantly more than a scrape. Some referees will say a ball in depth.

 

[NorfolkShaun]

This came up at our place a few weeks ago, there was an area that looked light rabbits had been laying in and had therefore removed all the grass and there were a few scratching and a lot of droppings.

The player stated in was in an area affected by a burrowing animal and was therefore entitled to relief, I have to say I was somewhat dubious about this and felt he was just unlucky to get a poor and rather tight lie.

So my question is really how far does the ground need to be affected to entitle a player to relief, and which of the following would you allow relief for?

a very tight lie in lots of droppings and all the grass scraped away

half a ball below the surface in a hole / trench

ball down a hole or completely below the surface level in a trench

this is assuming that none of the above are marked gur

 

[backwoodsman]

This came up at our place a few weeks ago, there was an area that looked light rabbits had been laying in and had therefore removed all the grass and there were a few scratching and a lot of droppings.

The player stated in was in an area affected by a burrowing animal and was therefore entitled to relief, I have to say I was somewhat dubious about this and felt he was just unlucky to get a poor and rather tight lie.

So my question is really how far does the ground need to be affected to entitle a player to relief, and which of the following would you allow relief for?

a very tight lie in lots of droppings and all the grass scraped away

half a ball below the surface in a hole / trench

ball down a hole or completely below the surface level in a trench

this is assuming that none of the above are marked gur

Break it into two parts.
1. Is it a hole, a cast or a runway? If yes then
2. Was it made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

If yes again, you get relief.

So for your examples, the first a pretty definite no, the second a perhaps but I'd need some convincing that it met both criteria, the third a probable but I'd need convincing it met criterion 2 about burrowing animal etc

 

[NorfolkShaun]

Break it into two parts.
1. Is it a hole, a cast or a runway? If yes then
2. Was it made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

If yes again, you get relief.

So for your examples, the first a pretty definite no, the second a perhaps but I'd need some convincing that it met both criteria, the third a probable but I'd need convincing it met criterion 2 about burrowing animal etc

That's great thanks, I should of been clearer on point 3 as I understand this may just be a hole and nothing to do with animals I would suggest in this case the hole was clearly made by an animal.

Does the same count for a ball on a mole hill then?

 

[rulefan]

That's great thanks, I should of been clearer on point 3 as I understand this may just be a hole and nothing to do with animals I would suggest in this case the hole was clearly made by an animal.

Does the same count for a ball on a mole hill then?

A mole hill is a cast made by a burrowing animal and therefore an Abnormal Ground Condition.
An "abnormal ground condition" is any casual water, ground under repair or hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird.

However a hole made by a squirrel does not meet the definition as a squirrel does not make holes for habitation.