KenL
Tour Rookie
Post #2 was sufficient and well written. 
Bunker flooded - Relief?
- Thread starter SwingsitlikeHogan
- Start date
Steven Rules
Well-known member
Somebody is confused here. It may be me misunderstanding what you are saying.
If you are standing in temporary water in the general area, you are entitled to free relief - except when your ball is in a penalty area. The location of the relief area will depend on which area of the course your ball is currently in.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Ok that I get - with the one further clarification question. Since my original question was about bunkers…does penalty area in your clarification include bunkers?
Apologies for being so dim. Just want to be sure I fully get it.
KenL
Tour Rookie
I thought a bunker was not a penalty area but a specific “hazard”. Does the word hazard still exist in the rules?
Steven Rules
Well-known member
No. See Rule 2.2 for an explanation of the five areas of the course.
Steven Rules
Well-known member
No. In the old days, hazards were either bunkers or water hazards. That terminology ceased in 2019.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
This example clarifies it, it seems. However, there is a difference. Unlike in the bunker, the ball in the penalty area cannot be dropped elsewhere in the penalty area (because it’s in water,say). You can only play it as it lies , or drop out under penalty.
Surely it’s a question of where you are and in what situation when the ball is “in play”.?
In Stevens water hazard (term used for clarity)example above, the player either drops out ‘cos he’s in the hazard under penalty and where he drops it ( say 2 club lengths on fairway)the ball is in play: or he plays it where it lies, and ball is in play
When on the fairway he can claim relief if stance in water,yes? And thus move the ball to another place on the fairway until the ball and his stance are dry. Then the ball is “in play” there.
If he remains in water hazard but stance in general area in water, he cannot claim relief,you say.
Is there somewhere where it says he can claim relief from the stance,but the ball must stay in the water hazard/bunker? That would seem to be what the rule should say in order to stop the O P getting a crafty but legal relief
rulefan
Tour Winner
Why confuse things by using old terminology. A Penalty Area involves a penalty.This example clarifies it, it seems. However, there is a difference. Unlike in the bunker, the ball in the penalty area cannot be dropped elsewhere in the penalty area (because it’s in water,say). You can only play it as it lies , or drop out under penalty.
Surely it’s a question of where you are and in what situation when the ball is “in play”.?
In Stevens water hazard (term used for clarity)example above, the player either drops out ‘cos he’s in the hazard under penalty and where he drops it ( say 2 club lengths on fairway)the ball is in play: or he plays it where it lies, and ball is in play
When on the fairway he can claim relief if stance in water,yes? And thus move the ball to another place on the fairway until the ball and his stance are dry. Then the ball is “in play” there.
If he remains in water hazard but stance in general area in water, he cannot claim relief,you say.
Is there somewhere where it says he can claim relief from the stance,but the ball must stay in the water hazard/bunker? That would seem to be what the rule should say in order to stop the O P getting a crafty but legal relief
As I said above, it is all about the position of the ball.
16,1a(2) says
(If)
- The ball is anywhere on the course, except in a penalty area (where the player’s only relief is under Rule 17).
Last edited:
Steven Rules
Well-known member
The presence or absence of water has nothing to do with it. Penalty areas do not need to contain water.
Correct. Relief options for a ball in a penalty area are covered in Rule 17.
I am afraid that this term provides no clarity. It is not a term used in the Rules of Golf.
Again, poor use of terminology. 'Fairway' is not one of the five areas of the course, and - fun fact - the term is used only twice in the Rules themselves. If the ball is in the general area, the player is entitled to free relief if their stance is in water. Yes.
If the ball is in a penalty area but the stance is in temporary water in the general area, there is no free relief available. Penalty relief is available under Rule 17.
Stop using the term water hazard. And please stop using sentence structures that try to treat penalty areas in the same way as bunkers under the Rules. Things changed in 2019.
"Is there somewhere where it says he can claim relief from the stance, but the ball must stay in the [penalty area]?" No. There is no such statement in the Rules. When taking penalty relief from a penalty area, the relief area may be in any area of the course except the same penalty area. (Rule 17.1d(2)) The player may stand in the penalty area to play a ball outside the penalty area, including after taking relief from the penalty area. (Rule 17.1) (Note - there is a small number of Model Local Rules where there is free relief for a ball in a penalty area where the relief area is in the penalty area, but none of those are in use here. And I hesitate to bring it up because it is not relevant and may just further confuse the issue.)
"Is there somewhere where it says he can claim relief from the stance, but the ball must stay in the bunker?" Yes. Rule 16.1c(1). When the original spot of the ball is in the bunker, the relief area must be in the bunker.
nickjdavis
Head Pro
Had this yesterday...a fellow competitor's ball was in the bunker, he had to stand outside the bunker to play the ball but his foot was in a rabbit hole...he wanted to take relief for interference by the rabbit hole, that would allow him (in his world) to take a drop outside the bunker. I advised him that his relief had to be taken in the bunker. In the end he played it as it lay....hit a good shot as well.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
But in your example could he have taken (stance) relief from the rabbit hole, picked his ball up, and then from where he had moved to take that 'rabbit hole' stance relief he dropped his ball in the bunker?
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Am I missing something. How is what you're asking any different to what Nick said in his post?
Swinglowandslow
Well-known member
Ken, it’s not difficult, it’s interesting. SILH raised an unusual scenario which in a nice way exercised the mind away from some of the more Xmas dross aroundI didn't understand the constraints on free relief when my stance is in an abnormal ground condition in the GA but my ball is in a bunker.
I think that I now understand that, in my scenario, I can seek the nearest dry stance position then drop my ball in the bunker in relation to that stance position…if there is no dry position for my stance then I find the stance position of best relief…I think…
The alternative to the above is that I get no free relief for my stance being in an abnormal ground condition in the GA as a consequence of my taking free relief for my ball being in water in the bunker.
SILH…re your second paragraph, I don’t think you seek your nearest dry stance,etc…I think you seek your nearest point of relief in the bunker on which to drop the ball. If having done that your resulting stance takes you on the edge of the bunker, so be it.
And after all we have said, it probable that your nearest point of relief from the water in your stance, is back in the bunker as opposed to further out into the general area.
So, having played Devils advocate on this , out on the Course I’d expect you to play the ball from the bunker whilst stood on the edge , or drop back out under penalty of one stroke.
But thanks for an interesting debate…( to some of us
)rulefan
Tour Winner
It was more confusing than interesting.SILH raised an unusual scenario which in a nice way exercised the mind away from some of the more Xmas dross around
SILH obviously didn't read Rule 16 (which included a reference to Rule 17) and made matters worse by referring to 'water hazards'.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Thing is that it doesn't sound like Nick's playing companion was given the opportunity to take stance relief in the GA whilst being then allowed to drop his ball in the bunker relative to his new stance position.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
I can stand corrected but I don't think I mentioned 'water hazard'...indeed I also didn't introduce 'penalty area' into the discussion.
And btw - I'm not trying to find a cunning way to get my ball out of a bunker...it was just a 'what-if?' thought that occurred to me and so I asked the question.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
How do you get that? It seems that's exactly what was told to the player (again, unless its me that's mis-reading it)
nickjdavis
Head Pro
Yes. He could have had relief but the ball would still have to be dropped in the bunker.
Steven Rules
Well-known member
I am sensing more confusion here. Certainly I am confused.
What do you mean by 'stance relief' and 'allowed to drop his ball in the bunker relative to his new stance position'?
