Buggies in Club Qualifying Competitions

[woofers]

I would be interested on views, or particularly club policies, on using buggies in your club's monthly medals / stablefords, and trophy competitions.

One club I know has a 'no buggies' in these competitions unless a medical reason is provided, another has a no restrictions at all. Thoughts please.

 

[User101]

Ask Casey Martin.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

We had this discussion at our club last year, brought about by our local league being asked the question and that prompted us. Our decision was that people could use buggies if they wished. We did not request a medical certificate but we do not expect the people using them to do so just for laziness. We were happy to take the word of whoever wants one that they would struggle without. Not everyone who struggles to do 18 holes has a medical problem. They could just have a dodgy knee, be old etc. We want them to play comps still. If we saw a fit and healthy 20yr old lad using one then I would expect them to be taken to one side and advised that it was not acceptable.

With regards to the league I don't know the outcome as I was only at the one meeting, standing in for someone. The general consensus of the meeting I was at was that they would be largely sympathetic but may require the medical exemption from their doctors.

 

[woofers]

Tyrion, thanks for your reasoned reply, (unlike the other one).
I hope it works for you, although your club has 'introduced' a grey area, something I think rules alleviate. Your fit and healthy 20 year old could say 'there's no rule against it' and although being unpopular, he could still play on? I totally agree that common sense should prevail, unfortunately the situation you describe actually occurred at one of my local clubs in the last monthly medal - category 1 players, aged under 25, using a buggy. Don't agree with it personally.

 

[User101]

The "other reply" is very apt but guessing you don't have a clue who Casey Martin is, you learn something new every day you know, you're welcome.

 

[Orikoru]

We had this discussion at our club last year, brought about by our local league being asked the question and that prompted us. Our decision was that people could use buggies if they wished. We did not request a medical certificate but we do not expect the people using them to do so just for laziness. We were happy to take the word of whoever wants one that they would struggle without. Not everyone who struggles to do 18 holes has a medical problem. They could just have a dodgy knee, be old etc. We want them to play comps still. If we saw a fit and healthy 20yr old lad using one then I would expect them to be taken to one side and advised that it was not acceptable.

No idea what my club's policy, but this is what I would agree with.

 

[Twire]

At my previous club there were no restrictions on buggies, and to be honest it never crossed my mind whether it would be a problem in qualifiers. Personally, I tend to play better when walking as it gives you more time to think.

My current club doesn't have buggies, so no problems there.

 

[patricks148]

At ours and Nairn Dunbar you have to have a medical exemption.

Only reason i know is someone i play with has just had to get one to play in comps and he's a member at both clubs and had to get one for both.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Tyrion, thanks for your reasoned reply, (unlike the other one).
I hope it works for you, although your club has 'introduced' a grey area, something I think rules alleviate. Your fit and healthy 20 year old could say 'there's no rule against it' and although being unpopular, he could still play on? I totally agree that common sense should prevail, unfortunately the situation you describe actually occurred at one of my local clubs in the last monthly medal - category 1 players, aged under 25, using a buggy. Don't agree with it personally.

The approach we took was to avoid setting down a fixed rule as that can then catch people they are not intended to. The simple answer is to say you must have a medical certificate. However, as I mentioned in my first post, that can still catch some golfers who would not qualify for a certificate but struggle with 18. There is another thread going on at the moment where a seniors open is stopping at 15 holes for those who want it as the next hole has a hill and that puts some off. Our method would allow for these golfers who may well not have a certificate but just find 18 a struggle when walking.

The moment the situation gets abused, as was the case at your place, we would have a word to say not again. If the person used the 'there is no rule against it' to intimate they would do it again then we would bring one in next meeting. We would do our damnedest to word it to be as inclusive as possible but stop the people abusing the situation.

We have left it down to the conscience of each golfer, hoping for the best, but would quickly stop it if required. There may be advice from the R & A on how to do that but at this stage we have not had to look at it. I would hope there is some clever wording out there that would help.

Is the person at your club likely to do it again? Were words said relating to him playing via a buggy or is it just general muttering?

 

[woofers]

The "other reply" is very apt but guessing you don't have a clue who Casey Martin is, you learn something new every day you know, you're welcome.

You guess wrong then, I do know who Casey Martin is. I was hoping to glean some relevant information and informed opinions from club members, rather than some sarcastic, smart Alec response.

 

[woofers]

.........

Is the person at your club likely to do it again? Were words said relating to him playing via a buggy or is it just general muttering?

Nothing said to them, and I may be the only one at the club 'muttering', I will have to make some discreet enquiries. Hence my starting a thread to ascertain the general feelings, rules, policies from other forum members. Would be astonished if this sort of thing is allowed in the 2 day club championship but can't find anything in writing at the moment.

 

[C&R]

It wouldn't bother me if someone aged 18 was using a buggy in a comp. doesn't make you swing better 😀

 

[duncan mackie]

Interesting way the question was worded.

If people use a buggy in Q comps then any and all advantage they personally gain will quickly be reflected in their handicap. So generally it's not a performance issue.

A fit 20 year old probably won't gain any advantage, so they aren't an issue.

Struggling to see where the real issue is?

Ah yes, the people who are prohibited from using a buggy that provides an advantage in their Q play but is able to use one in swindlers, roll ups, knockouts (maybe) and will obviously be first in line to book one for NQ open events.... banning them from using one in the club's Q comps really makes sense; not.

We have one 36 hole comp, played over one day, for which all buggies are banned...whilst I can understand the though process it's ultimately flawed because simply extending a comp from 18 to 36 deliberately to bring physical prowess more firmly to the fore isn't really club golf. As I'm physically unable to walk that far, let alone walk and play golf I simply can't play in the event.

Generally medical exemptions are a complete red herring to the perceived issue as well. Someone needing an advantage being granted it over someone who would like a potential advantage being prohibited - how does that make sense?

You might as well ban expensive, performance enhancing, golf clubs or balls because not everyone can afford them (although in this case at least their handicap will reflect the equipment they normally use!).

 

[Lord Tyrion]

The argument given is that being able to physically walk 18 holes is as part of golf as much as freely swinging the putter. We all, most anyway, tire by the latter holes so being in a buggy gives a definite advantage to someone using one. As you point out, this will be recognised by the persons h/c you would imagine, lower rounds = lower h/c. There is the period during the drop however where the person is gaining a definite advantage.

 

[duncan mackie]

The argument given is that being able to physically walk 18 holes is as part of golf as much as freely swinging the putter. We all, most anyway, tire by the latter holes so being in a buggy gives a definite advantage to someone using one. As you point out, this will be recognised by the persons h/c you would imagine, lower rounds = lower h/c. There is the period during the drop however where the person is gaining a definite advantage.

There's an advantage after having lessons too....probably best to ban them as well.

 

[patricks148]

Interesting way the question was worded.

If people use a buggy in Q comps then any and all advantage they personally gain will quickly be reflected in their handicap. So generally it's not a performance issue.

A fit 20 year old probably won't gain any advantage, so they aren't an issue.

Struggling to see where the real issue is?

Ah yes, the people who are prohibited from using a buggy that provides an advantage in their Q play but is able to use one in swindlers, roll ups, knockouts (maybe) and will obviously be first in line to book one for NQ open events.... banning them from using one in the club's Q comps really makes sense; not.

We have one 36 hole comp, played over one day, for which all buggies are banned...whilst I can understand the though process it's ultimately flawed because simply extending a comp from 18 to 36 deliberately to bring physical prowess more firmly to the fore isn't really club golf. As I'm physically unable to walk that far, let alone walk and play golf I simply can't play in the event.

Generally medical exemptions are a complete red herring to the perceived issue as well. Someone needing an advantage being granted it over someone who would like a potential advantage being prohibited - how does that make sense?

You might as well ban expensive, performance enhancing, golf clubs or balls because not everyone can afford them (although in this case at least their handicap will reflect the equipment they normally use!).

The argument given is that being able to physically walk 18 holes is as part of golf as much as freely swinging the putter. We all, most anyway, tire by the latter holes so being in a buggy gives a definite advantage to someone using one. As you point out, this will be recognised by the persons h/c you would imagine, lower rounds = lower h/c. There is the period during the drop however where the person is gaining a definite advantage.

I would def think there is an advantage for most especially in a 36 hole event..

The Nairnshire county championship is on Saturday with 18 holes at Nairn Dunbar then 18 at Nairn, off the blue tees and with almost 1400 yards to contend with, for me now thats just too long. last time i played it i was exhausted by midway though the 2nd round. if i could use a buggy i'd prob play in it again

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Make everyone carry as trolleys save energy.
Everyone to have their bags weighed prior to teeing off and anyone’s bag under 40lb is to have weight added.
Round to be completed in 1 hour 50 minutes.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I would def think there is an advantage for most especially in a 36 hole event..

The Nairnshire county championship is on Saturday with 18 holes at Nairn Dunbar then 18 at Nairn, off the blue tees and with almost 1400 yards to contend with, for me now thats just too long. last time i played it i was exhausted by midway though the 2nd round. if i could use a buggy i'd prob play in it again

Genuine question, Do you think part of the problem is that 99% of Clubs in the UK would have insufficient buggies for everyone.
So to create the perceived level playing field we just ban their use except for medical exemptions.

 

[duncan mackie]

I would def think there is an advantage for most especially in a 36 hole event..

The Nairnshire county championship is on Saturday with 18 holes at Nairn Dunbar then 18 at Nairn, off the blue tees and with almost 1400 yards to contend with, for me now thats just too long. last time i played it i was exhausted by midway though the 2nd round. if i could use a buggy i'd prob play in it again

I'm no doubting that there is an advantage to be gain by most in a 36 hole, and many in even 18 - it will vary by course and conditions.

It's difficult to dispute that there's an advantage for most in having a caddy, but they are very rarely banned!

As you move into elite amateur events you are starting to mirror the professional game in many aspects, and buggy policy tends to be one (an absolute advantage cannot be balanced by handicap factors in a scratch event).

It's self correcting in club Q events - arguably if you permit it in those you shouldn't ban it in major/board events because you then disadvantage someone whose handicap is based on having that advantage!

Club golf is supposed to be inclusive, yet here we are yet again looking to make it exclusive.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

There's an advantage after having lessons too....probably best to ban them as well.

Really? Come on, there is a fair discussion to be had on this.